MoreRain: Life&ES CoC Discharge [2.2]

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PoE17 wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Yo maks dawg!

-How does this compare to an ultra expensive legacy mjolner/KG setup in terms of:
1) clear speed
2) defensive power

-Is there any utility in replacing one of the CoC gems for blade vortex as seen with other versions of CoC discharge?

-Is there a possibility of using EV/ES gear (vertex + 1000/400 EV/ES shield) for the shield and helm for an added defensive layer or is simply getting ES/life hyrid goint to net more survive?

What is a KG setup?

Kingsguard armor in conjunction with ES on hit to replenish energy shield.

^^ ive played both leg mjolner and this so i can compare reasonably well, this build is definitely far more damage and it is defensively weaker. Its a faster playstyle and i think you can make up for the lack of defenses with mainly good flask planning and positioning.
Another advantage of this build is that its very good in a new league where as non legacy mjolner is a bit weak. Performance wise this is easier on your fps i dip to 30 fps and with mjolner in for example atziri uber i dip to 8fps.

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Fhark wrote:

^^ ive played both leg mjolner and this so i can compare reasonably well, this build is definitely far more damage and it is defensively weaker. Its a faster playstyle and i think you can make up for the lack of defenses with mainly good flask planning and positioning.
Another advantage of this build is that its very good in a new league where as non legacy mjolner is a bit weak. Performance wise this is easier on your fps i dip to 30 fps and with mjolner in for example atziri uber i dip to 8fps.

Thanks for the insight! I'm not too concerned about ubering all day or facetanking double malachai on a vulnerability monster damage map.

For me, it's really more of a question of how fast it can clear a t10-t13 map and solo to 100 compared to mjolner and I believe based on your information, it should be noticeably faster and vastly less costly due to the price of legacy mjolners.

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Nephalim wrote:

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PoE17 wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Yo maks dawg!

-How does this compare to an ultra expensive legacy mjolner/KG setup in terms of:
1) clear speed
2) defensive power

-Is there any utility in replacing one of the CoC gems for blade vortex as seen with other versions of CoC discharge?

-Is there a possibility of using EV/ES gear (vertex + 1000/400 EV/ES shield) for the shield and helm for an added defensive layer or is simply getting ES/life hyrid goint to net more survive?

What is a KG setup?

Kingsguard armor in conjunction with ES on hit to replenish energy shield.

Oh ok, i've played both (this coc to 100) and my AR/EB/MOM mjolner nuke is at 94, so not as experienced and i dont have the best gear/jewels for it but i have some feel for it.

Armour/EB/MOM nuke gear:


Just my humble thoughts (Matrix might have better/additional thoughts as his played it longer than i have):

1) Clear Speed:
Map Clear: They both use Discharge so not much to compare there for aoe range. The second gem it's ice nova versus arc. Arc helps with picking off low HP targets outside discharge range better whereas ice nova is just great for freezing everything (defence). Though I have ran a version of this build with increased AOE gem to hit much more of the screen which makes it alot easier on the outdoor open maps. The better thing is if you have a high aps dagger with whirling blades you can zip zoom around everywhere, which mjolner doesnt have and you have to use a quicksilver flasks which takes up a valuable flask spot if you want to get around as quick.
Boss Clear: Definitely this build, has more DPS and has the benefits of EE. It takes me 10 minutes just to do Core Malachai with Mjolner whereas i can have most of the map done with this build (granted i'm probably not as good with mjolner with the gear i have).
So i'd say this build generally clears faster overall with similar gear levels, if you run then AoE gem in ur links its def faster for the open outdoor maps.

2) Defensive Power:
AR/EB/MOM mjolner has better base/overall armour but thats about it, perma surgeons of iron skin when you want/need the armour is more than enough (looking at you porcupines from strongbox). Don't forget that ice nova freezes everything too, so can't be overlooked. Also mjolner clears rares/bosses slower so it means your uptime of having to tank is higher and riskier even though its slightly tankier (Looking at you beyond bosses). This build probably has a higher total EHP limit though considering you can scale the ES better, i had 11k total ehp by the end and i definitely cant see myself getting that with Mjolner gear requirements. Not to mention that with MOM if you get hit hard enough that EHP portion of it is gone until u hit and refill again which takes time. So generally i feel they're about the same but this is better with top end gear, but this build has more than enough defensive mechanics. You can even run a surgeons evasion flask if you want to for some bosses, and you can have over 50 percent armour and evasion at the same time. Leech and flask refill is about the same, though i think ball lightning for bosses refills a bit more.

3)Utility:
Blade Vortex really shines for generating charges on single targets.
So before you have a volls devotion in new leagues it helps to give you more/maintain your power charges at max 6/7 whatever you have, especially on single target. And you just get your cold damage on one of your jewelry for EE. Pretty much what everyone including myself in the new leagues would be doing. You might need to get some extra dex to run max blade vortex depending on ur gear/tree.

Matrix also pointed out the other option earlier to run cwdt lvl 1 - blade vortex - increased duration which works well enough for my liking imo.

I've played with various sixth link options. Ranging from blade vortex / blade fall / empower / increased and concentrated area of effect.

Blade fall adds some damage with no added mana cost, but discharge and bladefall means major fps issues with coc.

Empower adds damage, also another interesting thing is you can also run the immortal call setep with a red gem slot and have immunity to phys.

I think if you want to clear faster I would rather use an AoE gem if your dps is enough already, then switch this for conc effect for bosses. This adds a little extra to mana cost but its not that noticeable other than half regen or no regen, but for those maps i run a hybrid flask anyway.

4)Evasion Gear:
Not sure if the evasion shield is worth to lose the possible spell dam / spell crit mods.
Unless you have insane high evasion from helm and shield not sure if it's worth at all.

You can run utility vaal skills like vaal disc, vaal grace when you need it, such as shrines and strongboxes and engaging bosses initially.

Solo Lvl 100
This is my post when i got to 100 pretty much solo.
But honestly if you're going to do mainly T10-13 you should play vaal spark or full mirrored ranger dps build :p

If you want more clear speed videos you can check my channel in siggie, i have a few videos up.

Hope that was somewhat helpful, GL HF nuking if you decide to pick this up before it gets nerfed.

edit: Also dont think you can twinn mod malachai unfortunately.

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PoE17 wrote:

Solo Lvl 100
This is my post when i got to 100 pretty much solo.

If you want more clear speed videos you can check my channel in siggie, i have a few videos up.

Thank you! That was a tremendously insightful and detailed response. Your single post is more informational than the entirety of some build threads. I originally thought mjolner had the higher cost ceiling but its actually the opposite case after reviewing your gear in the link you posted. Sadly I would likely not be able to get that high of grade of ES gear for boots and shields - essentially best in slot for an ES build but I do not think the EHP difference should hamper my progress too much. Mjolner is not as "immortal" as I thought either, for a time it looked like the ultimate build in terms of balancing clear speed , survive and versatility (can do a wide array of map layouts, map affixes and face tanks end game map bosses). Overall, this build has a higher cost and EHP ceiling than Mjolner+KG and has superior boss killing and clear speed.

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But honestly if you're going to do mainly T10-13 you should play vaal spark or full mirrored ranger dps build :p

Would your answer change if it was say 12-15 as opposed to 10-13? The reason being is that it is very hard to sustain t15s especially solo and while I say 10-13, there may be some 14s and some 15s as well but most of the exp up will be from 10-13s. From your map data it looks like gorge/plat was giving even T15 a run for it's money. Only about a 35% exp difference and the former is practically risk free where as the latter can potentially kill you causing you to lose an immense amount of play time. From personal experience I was able to solo all the way to 96.7 doing about 80% T9-T10, 12% T11, 5% T12 and not a single T13-15 map albeit with very powerful and expensive gear on standard. I I think it would be hard the exp/min from doing maps like gorge and plat in less than 2 minutes and 15 seconds each.

I had looked into vaal spark(as well as vaal molten shell) as well but from what I saw, certain maps are not doable due to vspark's relatively short lifespan and the issue of mob density/map geometry - is this not the case? I understand Havoc has used this beast of a build to level to 100 several times and GGG has done their best to nerf the skill to dust and failed. I actually have pretty much all the gear required from slowly accumulate essentially pieces whilst maining a talisman character, I just don't want to get stuck with no vaal spark mid map and be forced to arc/spark things down at a painfully slow rate.

My goal is to build and play the fastest and most consistent exp/min builds with essentially no regards for being able to solo face tank twinned monster damage bosses and certainly no regard for silly dps numbers. The end result being a bunch of level 95+ characters ready for ascendant build testing.

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Hope that was somewhat helpful, GL HF nuking if you decide to pick this up before it gets nerfed.

Thank you again, it was.

I thought they had already did indirect nerfs to this build? Do you mean to say CoC and discharge gem will get the incinerate treatment when talisman ends? I do not expect to actually start playing this build till likely half way through or at the end of talisman.

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edit: Also dont think you can twinn mod malachai unfortunately.

I am completely fine with that trade off haha nor do I care about being able to uber in record time.

I will make a couple of points mainly from my limited exp eg ive played mjolner to lvl 94 and coc discharge to l86.
First of all on defense mjolner has higher resists eg 92 % roughly for coc, and 99 for mjolner flasked.
2nd mapping i really find coc a lot faster i just dont worry to much about stragglers. Im actually getting exp faster then i am with vaal spark but im not to good at that build yet.
3rd in terms of nerfing who knows i have heard that blade vortex may be changed to give a crit per cast, right now its a lot of power charges for free and that will probably go.
Also awesome gear and insights poe17,
good luck with whatever you decide.

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Thank you! That was a tremendously insightful and detailed response. Your single post is more informational than the entirety of some build threads. I originally thought mjolner had the higher cost ceiling but its actually the opposite case after reviewing your gear in the link you posted. Sadly I would likely not be able to get that high of grade of ES gear for boots and shields - essentially best in slot for an ES build but I do not think the EHP difference should hamper my progress too much. Mjolner is not as "immortal" as I thought either, for a time it looked like the ultimate build in terms of balancing clear speed , survive and versatility (can do a wide array of map layouts, map affixes and face tanks end game map bosses). Overall, this build has a higher cost and EHP ceiling than Mjolner+KG and has superior boss killing and clear speed.

The helm and shield are the bread and butter for the bulk of your ES, if you can get decent enough ones you'll be golden, I think Matrix ended up with a bit over 3k health and 5k ES in warbands with more than enough chaos res.
Mjolner is still a strong build, but this i feel is stronger, and you don't need legacy gear for it either.

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Would your answer change if it was say 12-15 as opposed to 10-13? The reason being is that it is very hard to sustain t15s especially solo and while I say 10-13, there may be some 14s and some 15s as well but most of the exp up will be from 10-13s. From your map data it looks like gorge/plat was giving even T15 a run for it's money. Only about a 35% exp difference and the former is practically risk free where as the latter can potentially kill you causing you to lose an immense amount of play time. From personal experience I was able to solo all the way to 96.7 doing about 80% T9-T10, 12% T11, 5% T12 and not a single T13-15 map albeit with very powerful and expensive gear on standard. I I think it would be hard the exp/min from doing maps like gorge and plat in less than 2 minutes and 15 seconds each.

Yes, vaal spark isn't as good in the top tier maps, but blows away the mid tier maps. Yeah the thing i like about doing T14s/15s is that you get more bang for your buck total exp from the currency investment. With the lower mid tier maps you have to run more of them to get the same net total exp worth, but that's just how i feel about it.
It does kind of suck though that the game / map metta makes it so that the higher tier maps are so hard to get and even if you run them, you can do the same with the middle to upper tier of maps since you can do them faster and get similar exp/hr. I would rather see it that the harder maps gave more exp so you play a build that can do them, rather than just slug away at mid-tier maps fast with a build that can't even do the hardest map tier, but is fast enough as has decent enough damage to clear it.

Here's a quote from Havoc himself on getting to 100 with vaal spark which you might find interesting, not sure if you've seen already from reddit (keep in mind that GGG did nerf the xp from getting 99 to 100 from last league to this league):

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[–]havoc616 72 points 7 days ago
To be honest I think I could have gotten to 100 a lot faster if:
-I played a build with cheaper gear
-A build that could handle more map mods (less currency spent rolling more on domination)
-A build that could actually kill 80+ Map bosses and do double packsize rip maps. I never really built a big red tier base until the end and even then I couldn't do the bosses on any of them (except courtyard).
I think this was my slowest 99-100 (not sure about 98-99) to date because speed running yellow maps really falls off because you don't have unlimited maps. Typically you want 20-30m xp/h with some 30+ spikes when you get good map rng. On this character I think I averaged 12-18m xp/h with an occasional 20-24m+ spike when I had good map rng.
Some random numbers about the maps I ran, most of these are a guess: 2 82s (Both from self found Trials) 10-20 81s 20-30 80s 50-80 79s 80-100+ 78s and then a lot of lower maps mostly around 74-76 with some 77s
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I had looked into vaal spark(as well as vaal molten shell) as well but from what I saw, certain maps are not doable due to vspark's relatively short lifespan and the issue of mob density/map geometry - is this not the case? I understand Havoc has used this beast of a build to level to 100 several times and GGG has done their best to nerf the skill to dust and failed. I actually have pretty much all the gear required from slowly accumulate essentially pieces whilst maining a talisman character, I just don't want to get stuck with no vaal spark mid map and be forced to arc/spark things down at a painfully slow rate.

Yes vaal spark shines on outdoor unobstructed open maps, maps like gorges, plateau, jungle valley, strand, springs. Not as good in the constrained/obstructed maps. He has lvled to 100 with it twice playing in groups and with a support and killed many players in the process :p - GGG nerfed the chill of corruption gem which now gives 50% chance and not 80% chance to get an additional vaal soul which didn't do too much. There are mods the build just simply can't do also like minus max, if your sparks hit a reflect mob you simply can't just turn ur sparks off as an example.

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Thank you again, it was.
I thought they had already did indirect nerfs to this build? Do you mean to say CoC and discharge gem will get the incinerate treatment when talisman ends? I do not expect to actually start playing this build till likely half way through or at the end of talisman.

I was just indirectly saying this build is really strong !!! No idea about balance nerfs, i only know they nerf heavily popular strong builds, popular being an important part too (because they don't like the meta to stay the same for too long which they've said somewhere). I remember playing the popular shatterchuck, which got the barrage nerf, popular flameblast, also nerfed, popular incinerate also heavily nerfed. If it gets popular enough it might just do but who knows.

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PoE17 wrote:

Here's a quote from Havoc himself on getting to 100 with vaal spark which you might find interesting, not sure if you've seen already from reddit (keep in mind that GGG did nerf the xp from getting 99 to 100 from last league to this league):

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[–]havoc616 72 points 7 days ago
To be honest I think I could have gotten to 100 a lot faster if:
-I played a build with cheaper gear
-A build that could handle more map mods (less currency spent rolling more on domination)
-A build that could actually kill 80+ Map bosses and do double packsize rip maps. I never really built a big red tier base until the end and even then I couldn't do the bosses on any of them (except courtyard).
I think this was my slowest 99-100 (not sure about 98-99) to date because speed running yellow maps really falls off because you don't have unlimited maps. Typically you want 20-30m xp/h with some 30+ spikes when you get good map rng. On this character I think I averaged 12-18m xp/h with an occasional 20-24m+ spike when I had good map rng.
Some random numbers about the maps I ran, most of these are a guess: 2 82s (Both from self found Trials) 10-20 81s 20-30 80s 50-80 79s 80-100+ 78s and then a lot of lower maps mostly around 74-76 with some 77s
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That is actually surprising. What cheaper more boss capable build was he referring to, if any? It seems a great contradiction to actually even attempt 80+ map bosses and double packsize rip maps in an HC environment. I actually heard a very different recount - that his primary advantage was in fact the ability to run mid tier maps in an instant with aura support as opposed to playing risky high maps but its not reasonable to use this as a baseline because as you said, he was in a group, with dedicated aura and looter support and a lot of team play.

I found the thread for quote and this comment from another user:

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The true stength of the build though, is superb aoe clear in OPEN maps. But it's the living hell in closed maps, because you're just a squichy bad arcer. Which works alright with supports like havoc had. But for solo play etc, it's just the nightmare.

Does this mean its not really going to shine compared to this CoC discharge in a solo situation on SC meaning the former is still going to be the better xp/min with all things factored.

Also, What did you mean he killed a lot of people?

Is the consensus now we should recolor our chest for Blade Vortex and just run that way all the time? I honesty could not tell today doing 82 Colosseum twice. Once with IN once with BV. I can't do uber ATM because 75% EXP to 95... Has anyone really sat down an analyzed IN, FP vs BV? Bosses seem to drop fast either way. I usually just stayed IN last patch even when FP was an option. The addition of the Blasphemy and thus Assassins mark really put this build over the top more anything I think. Anyway Matrix is still showing 3Bs in OP so wondering if BV is really the new direction.

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That is actually surprising. What cheaper more boss capable build was he referring to, if any? It seems a great contradiction to actually even attempt 80+ map bosses and double packsize rip maps in an HC environment. I actually heard a very different recount - that his primary advantage was in fact the ability to run mid tier maps in an instant with aura support as opposed to playing risky high maps but its not reasonable to use this as a baseline because as you said, he was in a group, with dedicated aura and looter support and a lot of team play.

Well other builds he played getting to lvl 100 included SRS, PA, Flameblast all before they got nerfed, neither of those required a shavs, a good dagger, expensive jewels, good ES gear and i think he started with them in the league, he couldn't start as a low life sparker he had to get some corrency to afford to get to it as his second character.

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Does this mean its not really going to shine compared to this CoC discharge in a solo situation on SC meaning the former is still going to be the better xp/min with all things factored.

Haven't played much vaal spark and not likely too, just seen lots of it in action so can't really comment there. But can say Hybrid COC does absolutely fine solo, in fact people hate you in parties obviously considering COC and Discharge is party members worst nightmare. Especially if you're not playing on a native/your best server.

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Also, What did you mean he killed a lot of people?

Eg this build flys through pretty fast, so he can kill a bearers pack and whirl through fine but the party members behind him .......... The last flashback league he PK's many poor souls especially due to beyond / invasion etc.

EG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40e1jTvRd0s