I Can't Do This Again

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ACGIFT wrote:

Though I WOULD point out that if massive "grinding" is MANDATORY, then we see the big issue with grind: it's an ARTIFICIAL game-length extender, to make up for having any real content to cover that area.

well no shit.
I mean, isnt that simple common sense?

content isnt made out of rubber, it runs out. even on a AAA, open-world RPG, it runs out. and it runs out fast.

random-generated dungeons (maps, rifts, whatever) are one of the ways to artificially extend content.

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An example of grind that was especially problematic pre-2.0: leveling to 100 just required repeating the EXACT same mapping: get a 6-man rotation group, and everyone alted Palace maps for +packsize, then regaled; the other two mods would be inconsequential to any 6-person party. Lather, rinse, repeat.

the problematic part wasnt that it was a set of repetitions, it was that there were problems in HOW the repetition was done, mainly packsize mandatory and alt+aug+regal was the most efficient way.

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An RPG is actually not sustainable if it relies on grind for the bulk of its content: this is why, as they age, virtually all MMOs have to implement various means of quickly advancing and such; those that stuck with the "yeah, you'll have to repeat the same 100 hours of grind because we were too lazy to make real content" schtick have all seen their userbases evaporate.

there will never be enough content in any game, period. people play poe for 1k+ hours. come on now, making the content is much harder than actually playing it. and as games cost more and more to make, the length of the content is decreasing, naturally. its sad, sure, but lets be real here- real content in poe ends before maps. so do all other arpgs.

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You just contradicted the VERY definition you posted to try and prove your point. As soon as you repeat a task with nothing new required of the player to think or react... It's grind. If a SINGLE repetition happens, it's grind, because the player just, well, repeated a task.

no I did not- you are using faulty logic and incomplete definition. grinding has to have repetition, but just because there is *some* repetition does not make it a grind, no sir.
if that would be true, you clicking same icon many times would constitute grinding. and then anything computer related would be...grinding.

now I do see a logical problem with what I said and what you quoted, so I'll say that statement was a bit wonky, but it will probably boil down to time investment proportional to average time investment

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grepman wrote:

well no shit.
I mean, isnt that simple common sense?

content isnt made out of rubber, it runs out. even on a AAA, open-world RPG, it runs out. and it runs out fast.

random-generated dungeons (maps, rifts, whatever) are one of the ways to artificially extend content.

You're misdirecting things; randomness = NOT repetitive, because it's something different.

Also, the content doesn't run out as fast as you think; actual AAA-open worlds tend to have easily hundreds of hours for a single character, and often allow for replayability by changing how everything functions just by making another character. The fact is, in those cases, the player isn't actually repeating the same task.

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grepman wrote:

the problematic part wasnt that it was a set of repetitions, it was that there were problems in HOW the repetition was done, mainly packsize mandatory and alt+aug+regal was the most efficient way.

That's what made it grind: randomized content isn't inherently "repetitive," because it CAN yield you something entirely different, which eliminates the "repetitive" part of it.

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grepman wrote:

there will never be enough content in any game, period. people play poe for 1k+ hours. come on now, making the content is much harder than actually playing it. and as games cost more and more to make, the length of the content is decreasing, naturally. its sad, sure, but lets be real here- real content in poe ends before maps. so do all other arpgs.

Well, "enough" is a subjective term as you're using it... There's a few other problems with what you say:

• "Enough" by your definition comes off as "infinity" (or close enough to it) when that, tautologically, is impossible to produce that amount of deterministic content in a finite span of time.
• Infinite content isn't necessary; it's not a game's job to keep providing new things as long as the player keeps going.
• However, in an RPG, it *IS* the RPG's job to keep things new as long as the player is still in the game's DESIGN PROGRESSION.
• That's where the definition of "Endgame" comes in; it's the end of the game's designed progression. Once the player reaches that, the RPG is under no obligation to provide new things, as the player has reached "The end." It's much like OTHER games that are NOT RPGs: Once the player beats the last mission of an FPS campaign, the developers were under no obligation to provide more readily-accessible content; after all, it would no longer be the end anymore if they did.
• In the case of PoE, the "endgame" is when someone is doing top-tier maps and Uber Atziri. There is no new content BEYOND that. So there is no need to worry about anything BEYOND that being repetitive.
• Mapping itself, however, is *NOT* the endgame unless it's level 82 maps: it is the "late-game." It is the game's obligation to provide complete content through this, so that a player can reach the END. Metaphorically, The devs don't need to make the bridge go on forever; rather they need to make sure the bridge has no holes in it.
• Lastly... Your statement that games are getting less content is patently false: AAA titles even now continue to grow in content length. As the best-seling example for aRPGS, Elder Scrolls titles have gotten longer and longer to fully clear of content: while the first two (Arena and Daggerfall) boasted effectively "infinite" quests, almost none of it was deterministic, and was the very definition of "grind"... In the mid-90s.

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grepman wrote:

no I did not- you are using faulty logic and incomplete definition. grinding has to have repetition, but just because there is *some* repetition does not make it a grind, no sir.
if that would be true, you clicking same icon many times would constitute grinding. and then anything computer related would be...grinding.

Allow me to copy the definition you'd pasted into your prior post: "repetitive tasks during video games." Even if we narrow it by example, it's clear that "using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content" doesn't restrict it to large lengths of time.

Example of "little bits of grind" present in PoE:

• Filling the EXP bar on a gem, only to JUST be shy of the level necessary to use it because the quantities still didn't line up right. This is easily shrugged off, but it remains that the game just technically gated the next tier of content requiring you repeat more fighting to reach it. Hence "a little" grind.
• Re-leveling a gem after using the vendor recipe to +20% quality it. The first few levels it will definitely be worse than before, hence often requiring the player drop back to easier play to compensate. Alternatively, if they'd leveled a spare to 20 and use that in the meantime, they STILL ground a bit just to avoid that: they were leveling a spare rather than a new gem.
• Early-game, one might need to repeat a zone, or clear more of it than they normally would, to acquire a bit of currency because RNG hasn't been too kind. This isn't always present, of course, but when it is, is clearly grind, just not much.

As it happens, all of the above are relatively minor hiccups; no one is particularly annoyed with them. So it's clear that there's more than one "amount" of grind. By contrast, if one has to drop back to using level 68-70 maps to level in the mid-late 80s onward, (where they will feel a severe penalty to their EXP gains) that is CLEARLY too much grind.

It's also "too much" because it's in an unacceptable place: it's forming part of "the bridge" to the end, as described above. Acceptable places, instead, CAN include earlier in the progression for "little grind," because it's not by intention: it's mild blips that smooth over unforeseen (and not deterministic) bumps in the progression. Similarly, at the end of the game... That's mostly a player's prerogative to keep going.

However, when the design intentionally gates progression ALONG that bridge, they are artificially extending the bridge's length, and this is the use that is NOT good.

As much as i love my character i'm close to stop playing cause of this unfair map system ! The late game needs consistent progress and not rng ! Totally behind the OP on the whole topic . Can just hope that this issue will be adressed very soon...