[HLD] Elemental damage all forms

I do have legacy gear. All you did was show a guy with 17k es. I can guarantee you based on his paper dps that he does not have 800 crit multi, despite having full mirrored gear. It's just not achievable without abyssus or doing some pointless shit like adding crit multi gem. Once you add some real dps gems like block pen and lightning pen and ignore the 10 million auras that do nothing in pvp this paper reave dps goes down to 50k max, which is worse than 20k cyclone, something I'm sure you can get above. Hell cyclone 20k is arguably better than 60k reave considering utility and skill range.

Flicker strike alone doesn't do shit in pvp anymore. Anyone still winning with flicker is doing coc fireball or some variant. I know you know this, so let's not pretend that you can still point and click win as pure flicker. I tried speccing my flicker to deal 100k paper damage in 1 hit against a friend I used to 1 shot and it scratched him for less than 3k. Pvm sure, it still works, along with 10000 other builds, but this is pvp. Also my friend with a 40 ex bow (his only >20ex gear) can clear maps faster than me with crit tornado shot and quicksilvers.

Look, we both know you know about pvp, but you're advancing your agenda at this point. post 1.3 non-coc dagger is pretty damn balanced compared to 2h rt, not to mention a ton of matchups where rt is essential (have you tried using crit against some puncture+knockback ts ranger with 50k eva and dodge?).

You may hate the pvp in this game, but that's because you see that as the endgame. Pvp was never meant to be that for poe. You want real balanced pvp? Try a different game. I see pvp as something to do for laughs on the side. Even if poe could come to some objective balance for pvp (what is that, even? who decides? Take that guy's build for example, do you have 7.5 mirror worth of gear on? I have maybe half that-should a build that plateaus at 50 ex be balanced to it?), there would be like 2 guys playing it at any time, like now.

Hey I know PvP isn't going to be the end game here. There's a reason I'm so high level because I pvm often and enjoy it more then pvping here.

As for the es dagger debate. I'm 100% certain a ci dagger can achieve 2 to 2.5x my HP daggers life (5300). While still having 6-700 multiplier and block chance even if just the equipping of a shield and very few nodes. While retaining huge realistic dps. I beat ppl with a binos dagger, flicker and under 50ex in gear. If a real dagger rightfully ci with melee on full + mirrored gear can't then that's the player not the game.

Onto why I hate PvP, well its simple...its not as deep as it should be. In beta PvP had true potential but trigger gems kind of crapped on most of it. Plus I don't like using just 1 skill (cyclone). Anyone that knows me knows I swap around often even when i win just to keep myself awake. If I was to redo my tree and gear back to when I only used cyclone I could re climb the ladder easily reclaiming my #1 rank I had at 2300 points and hold it. Fact is my character is set up to not be 100% pinned to one thing thus I'm weaker overall in all match ups yet can handle all of them while others cannot because they use 1 thing and are 1 dimensional. Nerfs to puncture,cc and the brokenness of hoa overkill ignite makes using cyclone an easy choice now. For now I'll pvm, play other games,life and watch ppl struggle to maintain top 10 when I know they have crazy gear and a 1 track mind...hold attack..profit or not profit. That's just how I see it and its all personal preference but right now PvP is redundent. I wish we could at least pk so there was a way to create non structured PvP scenarios and breath life into an otherwise stale queue....wait...queue wait....oh its the same shit over and over "swap gems back to cyclone because other options kinda suck, play match....log out in boredom."

I sold a lot of my Ci dagger gear to try other builds but with what I have left and a few cheap unique my Ci dagger shadow has the following stats.

11k es
900es regeneration per sec
31% block chance
86%critical chance
900 critical multi

flicker damage per hit 3000-5000 that's no bcr gem. (That's character sheet not tooltip so I don't think crit multi is taken into account here)

My 2h marauder who has decent gear has

8k hp
900 regen per sec
44% dodge chance
46% spell dodge

Cyclone damage per hit 3000-6000 no bcr gem (again character sheet not tool tip dps)


My marauder has a nice 760 dps 2h sword while the shadow uses a binos. There isn't much room for my sword to get better, it could get over 800 dps and loose the wasted crit chance roll in favor of +2 range from Vagan. I can still add flat phys and wed to my jewlery but even if my dps doubled he still wouldn't compare to my shadows dps.

Meanwhile my shadow has a lot of room to get better I've got no fat phys or %es on jewelry and binos has no crit multi And really low pdps like 230 vs 500+ on a mirrored dagger.

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lllllDethkloklllll wrote:

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flicker damage per hit 3000-5000 that's no bcr gem. (That's character sheet not tooltip so I don't think crit multi is taken into account here.

"Damage per use" tooltip on the character sheet does include crit multiplier. Then further multiply that by 0.7 because PvP damage effectiveness scaling and you realize, while it has lost its value as a main attack.

That's not my tool tip dps that's my character sheet combined damage per hit. Tooltip is closer to 25k flicker average damage per hit and that's with multi strike.

Even on the low end 3000 combined damage (physical + cold + light) with 900 critical multi is 27k damage even with pvp scaling that's 18,900 damage per hit.

the only thing 2h can really do is try to blind and enfeeble but then people will just keep Axn's non spell crit hits can't be evaded dagger as a swap.

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candoerfer wrote:

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lllllDethkloklllll wrote:

[...]
flicker damage per hit 3000-5000 that's no bcr gem. (That's character sheet not tooltip so I don't think crit multi is taken into account here.

"Damage per use" tooltip on the character sheet does include crit multiplier. Then further multiply that by 0.7 because PvP damage effectiveness scaling and you realize, while it has lost its value as a main attack.

x-y is without crit multi

I wouldn't turn this into a dagger vs 2h issue. 2h has notioursly been weaker per hit then bow,caster and most 1h weapon types especially dagger. Mostly because of the scarcity of crit options for a reliable 2h crit spec. RT 2h even with 850dps weapons pales in comparison to weapons or spells with 1/4th the Dps because of crit multi

Add to the fact 2h has the worst defense options in the game. Acrobatics is in a poor spot and it requires sacrifing damage,life or attack speed to take as melee 2h...things you already can't afford to sacrifice. Now, its not a bad trade when acro works its effectively worth every point and then some. Even with the bcr gem you're still over 25% dodges which is good. Unfortunately this isn't dragon ball and you can't dodge a dozen attacks at once. One will hit and it'll likely crit....and then you're dead. The damage output of crit undermines the mechanics in the game youre supposed to defend with. Life regens a joke vs bursty crit power. Armor a joke, HP levels a joke, in the case of the casters and elemental melee ..resists are a joke. I've pointed out how counter productive crit multi is to balance when its in excess of 2x your damage. Its super hard...basically impossible to balance. GGG has already dug such a deep hole with crit,penetration gems and cwdt that it'll never be right.

Now the ever so beaten to death by me comparison of es vs HP. Deth highlighted some real world examples. The HP side of the tree Is faaaar less equipped for real PvP then the es/crit/acro sides. Why? Rt is weak, unwavering stance is counter productive, resists are damn near a joke, HP regen isnt effective unless you're not taking damage. HP levels are lower then es plus lack the amazing perks es has and the damage potential.

Es/low life/ci have valuable perks that are game changing in PvP. Plus higher pools while still holding a shield. Plus full regents when untouched. Plus crit damage/options that make 100-200 DMG spells,weapons shit on end game 800dps ones.
.....and also have faster APS. Add the cwdt perks when you're crit or caster.

10k + es
Block
Cwdt that can kill easily
Full regens untouched
1-2 hit kill power vs the best of geared players
High mobility, far leniant to that of leap
Fast APS 1h weapons, spell echo or skills not reliant on speed at all I.e flicker

Vs

8-10k HP depending on acro or legacy kaoms but you can't achieve 10k with both while sustaining HP regen,speed or damage.
No block
Mediocre APS without cyclone or multi strike even with a reaver sword.
Pathetic crit options, not cost effective. Best to go rt, thus consistent but weak damage output.
Youre expected to go head to head with other melee or casters. When it takes you many hits to their 2-3 to kill you in faster time then you can squeeze out the amount you need to kill them yourself. Especially in the case of caster or dagger.

I dueled deth last night his 2h vs my binos HP based shadow. I was able to sit in his cyclones and tea bag him repeatedly. It becomes a cat and mouse game with 2h but 2h is rarely the cat. Vs casters you're the mouse, dagger the mouse, other 1h crit...the mouse. Vs bow you're the cat until the mouse tom and Jerry's your ass with a bazooka. 2h blows...if you lose to 2h you blow. Only ppl that understand this are those that play 2h melee themselves and played other characters ..witnessing how free it is.

2h is only good vs other 2h or for bullying bad players. Its the big kid on the playground that always talked shit and everyone expected him to be a bad ass. Until the kid half his size finally beat him down because he was really nothing.

If facebreakers could leap slam instead of lightning warp only as a main hand mobility option 2h would be obsolete. The damage and defenses are everything 2h has and more.

For 2h to be on the level ppl think it is. Acrobatics needs to be centralized between duelist/ranger. Crit multi needs a further Nerfand es pools need to appropriately be lowered to reflect all the awesome shit that es has crit/higher then 2h life + a shield/mobility/cwdt/ci/low life perks/sockets

Alright, kids, today I'll give you all a free lesson in how to beat op 1000000000000 dps crit dagger (mulla prob knows this already, but stick along anyway?) you all love to hate:

Take atziri axe. Get amplify and incr aoe so you have 100000000 aoe. Don't forget your op 20% movement speed helm. Combine that with melee knockback and the only viable melee skill in pvp called cyclone. Thank your opponent for wearing abyssus and as a result, you deal 40% more phys damage to him! Laugh as he tries to get to you via flicker and gets prompty knocked back via either your cyclone or cwdt icewall. When your opponent tries to cyclone against you, just laugh harder because without blood magic, trying to sustain that shit is a joke (soul taker = no shield, go below 10k es?). Besides, you still outrange him by >30% anyway. Oh yeah, don't forget the final step: go on poe forums so you can complain about the 100000000 of dps that crit dagger would deal on you, if only.


And you think 2h has problems against casters/bow? With knockback being so huge you can't afford to not use cyclone, which effectively makes es less, not more tanky (due to using soul taker) than life, due to dodge.

PS: certain semi-viable pvp skills like lightning strike and molten strike require a certain node called point blank. Good luck reaching that as a tanky es char.

As for your experiment with deth, care to make a dagger build to beat my guildie, gutbags? All his gear combined is less than 1/3 of mine or yours. If dagger is so op please make a 10ex build and destroy him, k?

Funny thing is, I'm not even saying dagger is bad. It's great at some things, like insta killing people who make a mistake/lag out for a bit. But when you ignore all the benefits of 2h rt, it becomes an agenda.

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Take atziri axe

cool sc only solution :/

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andkamen wrote:

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Take atziri axe

cool sc only solution :/

not exactly, one of the top 10 in eu ladder is from HC and wields atziri axe

bu anyway, a good 2h build vs a good caster/bow is a fucking hell of a fight for 2h because that is pretty much your counter, casters 1 shot so if you get close and stay there long ou will get mashed in half a second, bowers are extremely fast and the ones that use EA are incredibly hard to beat

and versus crit dagger, all of what he types there is bullshit, they need 1 flicker to 1 shot, try fighting rannggey for example as a 2h build. 9k life gone in 1 flicker.