[ LLD ] Swords are way too good compared to other melee bases

GGG needs to do something about sword being the best base over any other melee type in LLD, it has twice the speed, the range, almost the same damage as other heavy bases.

Compare sword nodes to other weapon bases nodes, it's just redundant to look at other clusters for axe/mace, they are weak, they provide almost no perks.

Swords can easily get the sword block pen nodes from the duelist side, they have bleed on hit marauder cluster, you can easily go non-rt crit with how easy it is to stack accuracy with a sword.

let's look at mace for exemple, it has literally no good clusters, the marauder mace cluster gives nothing but stuns, which is countered by chayula. Rip i guess ? The speed is insanely slow, you also cannot use duelist +2 weapon range so you instantly die to any sword matchup with heavy strike because you are outranged.

Let's look at axe now, it also has no perks whatsoever, yes it has more speed than mace but barely. The only upside from axe is the big damaging marauder axe cluster, other than that it has absolutely nothing. Yet it is still outranged by duelist +2 weapon range with any sword build, so easily taken down. It also has very poor accuracy nodes, which leads you to rt or it's pretty pretty bad.

On top of all the perks sword has, why exactly give the block pen nodes only to swords ? In my opinion swords should rather not get any block penetration nodes whatsoever or make them usable with other weapon bases. Mace and axe would make really good use of the block pen nodes considering how slow they are compared to sword.

At the moment it makes really no sense to use something else than a sword in LLD, every good perk are for swords and the other bases are just badly left behind. If nothing is done for this i can see a 1h/board melee meta for S2, there is really no reason to go 2h or 1h without using a sword, you'll lose to any 1h sword build anyways and have a hard time hitting ranged builds that run considering how slow other bases are.

Do something.... swords have been the meta for way too fucking long already.

What about physical wands vs bows?

yeah wands need buff and better skill, but thats not the point. sword > everything melee

im afraid there is not much that ggg can do at this point of the game.

They cant do big passive changes to the tree for season 2, nor can they give damage multipliers based on what weapon you are using.

maybe slight tree nerfs (some kind of drawback for Arena node - it's a huge node with no drawback whatsoever) or an OP skill that non-swords can use.

"

bigfoot312 wrote:

maybe slight tree nerfs (some kind of drawback for Arena node - it's a huge node with no drawback whatsoever) or an OP skill that non-swords can use.

Seriously removing block chance reduction from swords but adding a universal 2h block chance reduction cluster that benefits axe/mace/2h sword would solve a lot of this. It levels out 1h weapons, gives 2h in general a buff they deserve and lets all weapon types gain a bit more viability while knocking 1h sword down a peg.

I posted this awhile ago, pre 1.3 and I don't see a fault in it whats so ever. 2h are the only weapon family that should be "crushing" block chance off the tree. 1h gets a shield, sword gets the speed/crit which makes it what it is now a problem in lld. Other weapon types can't compare to 1h sword except dagger. In high level its pretty much the same story. 1h sword/dagger are the go to. 2h mace still sucks ass because of stun immunities, axe is viable but mostly in RT form. 2h Sword is fine, lacks range, has speed, damage output is fine. Still the only viable crit 2h weapon is staff regardless. Crit 1h vs RT 2h, the damage values are on par, the survivability/utility isn't. Just food for thought, I only see this being a positive thing for diversity and pvp.

Edit: Wouldn't hurt to even let it work for staff, though I can see why it shouldn't.

In LLD there are perhaps 2 dagger users that can compete with average sword users, and that's due to a ridiculous amount of perfection. Swords dont need half the optimization dagger needs and min/maxed sword largely out-performs dagger. I think removing the BCR from sword is a start, but Mara sword and ranger sword are just as OP. The reason is imbalanced trees in each portion. Mara sword circle is so much better than the rest of the clusters it's gross. I tested a 150 pdps sword mara does more dps than a 165 pdps axe mara. duhhhhh! Rangers have that massive speed/dmg circle to hook up with heart of the oak and acro, simply too much good shit. Duelists get massive range, speed, bcr, and dmg... In any corner of the melee trees you can't replicate half the efficiency sword users are benefited.

"

bigfoot312 wrote:

In LLD there are perhaps 2 dagger users that can compete with average sword users, and that's due to a ridiculous amount of perfection. Swords dont need half the optimization dagger needs and min/maxed sword largely out-performs dagger. I think removing the BCR from sword is a start, but Mara sword and ranger sword are just as OP. The reason is imbalanced trees in each portion. Mara sword circle is so much better than the rest of the clusters it's gross. I tested a 150 pdps sword mara does more dps than a 165 pdps axe mara. duhhhhh! Rangers have that massive speed/dmg circle to hook up with heart of the oak and acro, simply too much good shit. Duelists get massive range, speed, bcr, and dmg... In any corner of the melee trees you can't replicate half the efficiency sword users are benefited.

I hear ya, Daresso's amulet covers some of the range. Multistrike covers a lot of the aps but you're right swords are favored. Mostly imo due to the fact its such a universal weapon. Marauder using axe/mace/sword makes sense. Duelists and Ranger archtype in these types of games generally are sword sword sword, just how it is and that seems to be how GGG went about it as well. Still no reason for 1h swords to dominate the meta due to block chance reduction perks. I say remove that shit, let 2h have that cluster. Its a good start imo, id like to see how things unfold for 1h meta if this was to happen. I think it would allow more diversity.

I know daressos isn't an option in temp leagues without chancing it in maps. Though no ones stopping anyone from taking moa or starting duelist themselves. Plus just because there are sword clusters all over the bottom region doesn't mean other weapons blow. You have options to spec into more life,block/DMG nodes and attack speed while using other weapons plus their respective weapon clusters. That's not to say it may seem inefficient vs just taking a sword but its how it works and honestly closes the gap a bit.

Honestly wouldn't hurt to let items like daressos/shavs ring drop again on a regular basis. Were in a place in this game where its neither game breaking nor a bad thing for PvP/pvm. Lots of those items play an important roll in lld meta due to class selection and lack of tree travel. Hld ppl can build hybrid variants of a lot of shit using the tree while lld is pretty much pick a class style classic arpg diversity with a twist.

"

MullaXul wrote:

"

bigfoot312 wrote:

maybe slight tree nerfs (some kind of drawback for Arena node - it's a huge node with no drawback whatsoever) or an OP skill that non-swords can use.

Seriously removing block chance reduction from swords but adding a universal 2h block chance reduction cluster that benefits axe/mace/2h sword would solve a lot of this. It levels out 1h weapons, gives 2h in general a buff they deserve and lets all weapon types gain a bit more viability while knocking 1h sword down a peg.

I posted this awhile ago, pre 1.3 and I don't see a fault in it whats so ever. 2h are the only weapon family that should be "crushing" block chance off the tree. 1h gets a shield, sword gets the speed/crit which makes it what it is now a problem in lld. Other weapon types can't compare to 1h sword except dagger. In high level its pretty much the same story. 1h sword/dagger are the go to. 2h mace still sucks ass because of stun immunities, axe is viable but mostly in RT form. 2h Sword is fine, lacks range, has speed, damage output is fine. Still the only viable crit 2h weapon is staff regardless. Crit 1h vs RT 2h, the damage values are on par, the survivability/utility isn't. Just food for thought, I only see this being a positive thing for diversity and pvp.

Edit: Wouldn't hurt to even let it work for staff, though I can see why it shouldn't.

"

MullaXul wrote:

This is another good example of LLD balance that will really really fuck with HLD.

Honestly there's literally no 1h sword/board builds in hld 'cept me, hurhurrr durrr...

"

kevshien wrote:

"

MullaXul wrote:

"

bigfoot312 wrote:

maybe slight tree nerfs (some kind of drawback for Arena node - it's a huge node with no drawback whatsoever) or an OP skill that non-swords can use.

Seriously removing block chance reduction from swords but adding a universal 2h block chance reduction cluster that benefits axe/mace/2h sword would solve a lot of this. It levels out 1h weapons, gives 2h in general a buff they deserve and lets all weapon types gain a bit more viability while knocking 1h sword down a peg.

I posted this awhile ago, pre 1.3 and I don't see a fault in it whats so ever. 2h are the only weapon family that should be "crushing" block chance off the tree. 1h gets a shield, sword gets the speed/crit which makes it what it is now a problem in lld. Other weapon types can't compare to 1h sword except dagger. In high level its pretty much the same story. 1h sword/dagger are the go to. 2h mace still sucks ass because of stun immunities, axe is viable but mostly in RT form. 2h Sword is fine, lacks range, has speed, damage output is fine. Still the only viable crit 2h weapon is staff regardless. Crit 1h vs RT 2h, the damage values are on par, the survivability/utility isn't. Just food for thought, I only see this being a positive thing for diversity and pvp.

Edit: Wouldn't hurt to even let it work for staff, though I can see why it shouldn't.

"

MullaXul wrote:

This is another good example of LLD balance that will really really fuck with HLD.

Honestly there's literally no 1h sword/board builds in hld 'cept me, hurhurrr durrr...

There is actually