Mechanics thread

Alright, perfect.

Sorry Malice for doubting you!

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faerwin2 wrote:

Alright, perfect.

Sorry Malice for doubting you!

Haha it's ok, I'm not always right, I was wrong about how stun works dual strike just a page or two back

Another way of expressing how strong endurance is: what would the values be if it were a separate multiplicative source of DR?

If I nearly cap my DR with 6 endurance charges, I have 60% reduction from armour alone. Endurance brings that reduction figure to about 90% in this example.

If I had a separate multiplicative source of reduction that brings me to 90% instead, it would have to be this large:

1 - (1-60%)*(1-x) = 90%, solve for x, x=75%.
Endurance as a multiplicative source of reduction per charge? 12.5% multiplicative reduction per endurance charge, if those charges just barely capped your DR.

If you only have 4 charges and do the same exercise (try here) they're worth 13.3% multiplicative DR per charge at the cap.

Just another way of looking at it.

It takes 45k armour to reach 60% DR (capped by 6 endurance) from armour vs. a 2500 dmg hit. This figure is only slightly challenging to reach, without a shield, under flasks.
37k armour - 55% DR (7 endurance to cap)
45k armour - 60% DR (6 endurance)
56k armour - 65% DR (5 endurance)
70k armour - 70% DR (4 endurance)
90k armour - 75% DR (3 endurance) --- I think this one is impossible even with a shield.

Of course not all players are even reaching for the cap against large hits, quite a few just want hits to be less than 1/3 of their health, or something like that.

For instance, my duelist will be keeping hybrid evasion/armour gear, just an experiment. But if I want that same boss to only hit me for 800 damage, I need 23k armour (with my 4 endurance setup). Is that possible? Abolutely, with granite+iron skin. Now since I should be regenerating lots of health per second from leech, and all my crits should cause a momentary freeze, might be able to evasion-tank that big boss until flasks run dry. A saturated should last 28 seconds, and three granites should last 24. Can tank him for 24 seconds.

Do the same comparison to a multiplicative source of reduction, and I get that each of those 4 charges would be worth 8.9% multiplicative DR. Then all four are worth about 36% multiplicative, comparable to enfeeble or temp chains.

Solver for that approach is here

Trying to make this information more accessible to everyone. There will eventually be an excel sheet, but the mechanics are complex enough. Need a little more context before I can make an accurate tool.

nit picking here but, max endurance charges is 8 =p you can have two rings silly. doesn't change that much though lol.

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soul4hdwn wrote:

nit picking here but, max endurance charges is 8 =p you can have two rings silly. doesn't change that much though lol.

Yeah I know, I just don't consider 8-endurance to really be a worthwhile possibility, so I left it out. When you trek miles across the skilldrasil just to pick up those 3 specific keystones, you're left with either an over-defensive build or a build that relies solely on endurance for defense.

Getting 2 of the 3 can be done efficiently, though, with room left over for some build diversity. At least for mara and temp it can, not sure about duelist.

couldn't find information as i tried researching about how resistances mix with conditions, specifically burning because it is two part instead of linear.

i assume 75% less applies to the hit and the 1/3 base damage per second of burning and fire damage. so for no duration boosts to burning, 4 seconds gets "canceled" by the 75% less (0.25 *4).
dmg * 0.25 + (dmg * [1/3 * (1 + burn dam boost)])
dmg is after boosts of fire/spell damage.

am i correct or am i putting things in wrong order?

Does area of effect radius and area of effect dammage effect minion instability?

how does a map item quanitity stack with player item quanitity: additively or multiplicatively?

So, all the plots I posted of EH vs armour are wrong.

I originally claimed that EH scales like a root vs armour. Actually, *sigh* it should have been pretty obvious that EH should be linear vs. armour, because reduction is inverse-linear. I was getting mixed up by how DR changes vs damage intake, which really doesn't work at all. Basically I was calling EH the size of a single hit which would kill you. Interesting but not really that useful.

Anyway, EH is linear vs armour when I hold damage intake constant. Endurance makes it behave like.... An increasing hyperbolic function. That means each time you add armour, you get significantly more out of it than the previous time you did.

this plot is EH vs *base* armour, while double flasked. To the approximate max base armour you can get without a shield (around 4800). This plot shows how much "effective health" you gain from your base armour, beyond an iron skin granite flask. Yes, the flask adds 350% EH, but maxing out armour on top of that can add another 300%.

Adding more endurance charges further amplifies the effect of armour on top of your flasks. Adding %IAR from passives (or determination) just scales the whole thing (shrinks it to the left - you cap sooner).

Build: 127% IAR, and this isn't really that high. 4 endurance, no shield, 2000 physical damage pre-mitigation per hit (big boss). I choose the large hit to later compare evasion, because against very large hits evasion should gain ground on armour in terms of effectiveness.

Now this plot shows its derivative, or EH-per-base-armour. Notice that at low armour values, I would get 1% EHP per 20 base armour or so, and at the max it's more like 1% EHP per 10 base armour. At the lower end of that range, if my health globe is small and only 2,000 life: [1% EH / 20 base armour] x [2,000 life / 100% EH] -> 1 effective health per base armour added. <---- It only gets better from here. Of course, you'll also have %incr. life passives, so 1 armour on gear < 1 life on gear for most of us. Other reasons too. But there you have it, armour scales UP and its value is on the same order of magnitude as flat life in this very specific context.

Context matters a great deal, but changing the damage intake per hit shouldn't change the shape of the curve much. It'll just change where the cap is (curve will shrink to the left). If you don't have as much %IAR, of course you'll get less EH out of your base armour rating.

Someone once accused me of, how was it? Cherrypicking? Choosing a scenario that illustrates my point extremely well. Yeah, I'm doing that here too, but there's some usefulness to it. If I showed the value of granite on top of armour, it'd make armour worth less than this approach. But granite is a constant, and the ongoing debate among players is whether or not to stack %IAR and armour. I think my approach works, because it shows what happens when you keep adding armour.

I just have to pop in to say that I use this thread all of the time and that it is fantastic. Thanks for the effort OP and everyone who has added to it.