Support.

"

ARPGfan wrote:

This is something you only have to worry about if you deliberately break GGG's rules for the game continuously.

Learn the rules, don't break them. It's pretty simple.

If only it were this simple.

There is most definitely a game within a game - rules within rules... rules that apply only to certain accounts... rules that don't apply to other accounts.

Anyone who is perceptive enough - or really: honest enough with themselves can see this happening daily.

The rules conveniently only apply to some of us. If you have a non-popular opinion, people can rally 5 pages of deliberatly antagonistic, flaming garbage against your posts, and suffer an edit. React one time to their PAGES of junk if you are on GGG "hit list" account: KABOOOOOOOOOOM probation.

It's actually really unfair - unjust - but hey: you made it to the "hit list" so I guess you deserve it, right? WRONG.

Every account should be treated the same. You probate ME for calling someone a name - then you probate someone else for calling me that same name. PERIOD. Otherwise it's edits for everyone.


Something has to change around here. I like OP's ideas. Something like this should be implemented - and a greater communication needs to be had between moderators and posters. Something that is ok to say 2 weeks ago suddenly it's not ok to say today? Let us know that - don't just probate us all willy nilly just because you feel like it that day for whatever reason. Get some coffee - write a nice little reminder to someone - especially someone who's CLEARLY been changing their ways around here for several months. You owe that little tiny bit of respect.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

The prison system has it right, first time offenders don't get that high a penalty, the more you repeat the higher your punishment.

That's just plain old intuitive.

You give people a chance to learn, and so just an initial taste of being locked down, but if they refuse to learn and continue to do bad they will face the full consequence of their actions.

It doesn't mean the highest penalties occur for small repeated things either.

I got a month for a picture of a duck. Seriously.

"

Real_Wolf wrote:

What you are saying is factually wrong. So sorry, your conclusions are based on a false premise and therefore invalid.

First: There is a forum guideline saying it, its called "listen to the moderators" or "This is GGG's forum". When someone ignores the moderators saying "Stop doing this" then they are breaking two rules not one. Therefore they get punished for two rules instead of one.

"listen to the moderators"

And

"This is GGG's forum"

No those are not forum guidelines. They are written nowhere on forum guidelines :

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/514309

"

MaxTheLimit wrote:

Lastly, I don't support your demand. I feel the existing method of enforcement is superior. Not going into details. Many people have covered any point I would make already.

No you should! I spent the time to answer you, you do the same.

"

jdilly23 wrote:

I got a month for a picture of a duck. Seriously.

Really?

"

InexRising wrote:

My arguments.


Current system
=
Bad:
Because make players angry as they feel good behavior will never clean their past infraction and they are doomed to get expanded probations more and more.

In my experience its not hard to avoid probation's so even if your reputation is bad it shouldn't matter if your actually trying to follow the rules.

It sucks that you messed up in the past and will be looked at differently than someone with no offenses but that's on you and it doesn't have to affect you in the future if your doing your best to follow the rules.

I don't believe in expanded punishment because it doesn't work, and, alternatively, the same punishment each time basically results in the same desired (by people who agree with expanding) outcome.

IOW - repeating an offense will lead to repeated temp-banning's. There. Done. If they are always breaking the rules, they will always be temp-banned. If they stop breaking the rules for a while and are good contributors, they will not get banned. Then if they start up again, they go back to being temp-banned.

There is no reason to increase the punishment because it is the x'th offense - it doesn't work, statistically speaking, with law enforcement and it doesn't in a forum either (plenty of studies to find online to support this pov).

This is actually a simpler solution than what the OP and the one other poster who (whom?) agrees with him is offering (better reputation with time, etc.)because it doesn't require yet another system in place on top of the other one. Removing the history simplifies things, and not adding more complexity on top of that obviously does too.

On top of this - the rules should apply to everyone, equally. It isn't a good excuse (paraphrasing another poster or mod above) that "the mods ARE dispassionate but don't always have the fullest, clearest picture of what is going on". It really is simple: Mods, GG employee's or otherwise, sometimes read the thread. If ANYONE breaks ANY rule - they SHOULD commit the clearly defined punishment or warning. If someone reports something to them, they should look at the possibly-offending post AND all of the post's around it and/or in the reply-chain to see if there are other perpetrators. Still not perfect, but I think better then what happens on most forums with "reputation" and "post voting" and "increased punishment", etc.


Also - with regards to the warning and then only being able to give repeated warnings if the same rule breaking occurs - this is actually wrong (or the wrong way to look at it, or maybe "wrong" is the wrong term... lol). If someone is given a warning and THEN repeats the behavior, they are now also defying the mods (which itself should be against the rules) and that should be what leads to punishment.

Of course, if it is a strong enough offense the first time, then no warning should be given the first time, just the temp ban.


(Part of the reason I hold this pov is not just due to logic or studies or something more concrete or whatever, but because once on Arstechnica, I was given a 1 month ban for a very minor infraction due to having been warned four times previously for other things... in the 5 years I have been a member. Talk about wasted time creating systems to track people for the rest of their posting-lives!)

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

InexRising wrote:

My arguments.


Current system
=
Bad:
Because make players angry as they feel good behavior will never clean their past infraction and they are doomed to get expanded probations more and more.

In my experience its not hard to avoid probation's so even if your reputation is bad it shouldn't matter if your actually trying to follow the rules.

It sucks that you messed up in the past and will be looked at differently than someone with no offenses but that's on you and it doesn't have to affect you in the future if your doing your best to follow the rules.

That doesn't follow - if he is being "looked at different" then it will affect him in the future. Given what some people seem to get in trouble for around here, I don't think the "as long as your a good citizen, you have nothing to worry about" reasoning works.

At least not a reputation with the mods. Of course your reputation with the rest of the community is a different matter. If everyone thinks your a jerk, you cant do much about that except get into good graces with time.

"

BINARYGOD wrote:

[
I don't think the "as long as your a good citizen, you have nothing to worry about" reasoning works.

It works for me. Honestly even if I somehow did have infractions on my record. I would just tell myself oh well its not going to affect me because I actually try to follow the rules as best I can so there will not be a reason to probate me in the future regardless.

Increasing punishment is really only going to harm the guys who aren't trying to follow the rules or who are doing a bad job of it.

"

BINARYGOD wrote:

I don't believe in expanded punishment because it doesn't work, and, alternatively, the same punishment each time basically results in the same desired (by people who agree with expanding) outcome.

IOW - repeating an offense will lead to repeated temp-banning's. There. Done. If they are always breaking the rules, they will always be temp-banned. If they stop breaking the rules for a while and are good contributors, they will not get banned. Then if they start up again, they go back to being temp-banned.

There is no reason to increase the punishment because it is the x'th offense - it doesn't work, statistically speaking, with law enforcement and it doesn't in a forum either (plenty of studies to find online to support this pov).

This is actually a simpler solution than what the OP and the one other poster who (whom?) agrees with him is offering (better reputation with time, etc.)because it doesn't require yet another system in place on top of the other one. Removing the history simplifies things, and not adding more complexity on top of that obviously does too.

On top of this - the rules should apply to everyone, equally. It isn't a good excuse (paraphrasing another poster or mod above) that "the mods ARE dispassionate but don't always have the fullest, clearest picture of what is going on". It really is simple: Mods, GG employee's or otherwise, sometimes read the thread. If ANYONE breaks ANY rule - they SHOULD commit the clearly defined punishment or warning. If someone reports something to them, they should look at the possibly-offending post AND all of the post's around it and/or in the reply-chain to see if there are other perpetrators. Still not perfect, but I think better then what happens on most forums with "reputation" and "post voting" and "increased punishment", etc.

...

Of course, if it is a strong enough offense the first time, then no warning should be given the first time, just the temp ban.


(Part of the reason I hold this pov is not just due to logic or studies or something more concrete or whatever, but because once on Arstechnica, I was given a 1 month ban for a very minor infraction due to having been warned four times previously for other things... in the 5 years I have been a member. Talk about wasted time creating systems to track people for the rest of their posting-lives!)

I am glad to see someone is reponding after having read the thread!
Listen to this forum user!

"

Also - with regards to the warning and then only being able to give repeated warnings if the same rule breaking occurs - this is actually wrong (or the wrong way to look at it, or maybe "wrong" is the wrong term... lol). If someone is given a warning and THEN repeats the behavior, they are now also defying the mods (which itself should be against the rules) and that should be what leads to punishment.

Yeah
Misdeed 1 -> Warning
Misdeed 2 of different nature -> probation?

There is also something wrong here but whatever as long as my point, which BINARYGOD has written here, is understood :
"There is no reason to increase the punishment because it is the x'th offense - it doesn't work, statistically speaking, with law enforcement and it doesn't in a forum either (plenty of studies to find online to support this pov)."
I would be happy with the results this thread could make.

"

iamstryker wrote:

Increasing punishment is really only going to harm the guys who aren't trying to follow the rules or who are doing a bad job of it.

Not only.
It generates bad outcomes from players who are/were still confused. They become WORSE.

And nobody wants that, not someone who sees forum guidelines as a way of creating harmony on the forum.

"

BINARYGOD wrote:

There is no reason to increase the punishment because it is the x'th offense - it doesn't work, statistically speaking, with law enforcement and it doesn't in a forum either (plenty of studies to find online to support this pov).

I did a quick Google and I found both studies that said escalating punishment does work and studies that said it doesn't. They seemed to be very theoretical though, the reasoning was done with mathematical formulas rather than statistics. I think you should link to the studies you say support your view.

"

InexRising wrote:

It generates bad outcomes from players who are/were still confused. They become WORSE.

People who are legitimately confused really just get warnings. The warnings and talking with the mods will teach you what you can and can't do. It's not hard to know what's considered antagonizing/hateful and what isn't.