(Helping GGG in) Creating a unique item: a breakdown of the breakdown

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Charan wrote:

Unleashed has a bit of each, but mostly I'm very conscious of what it means to wield a 2 hander in Merciless. I fear cheese like ST but the reassurance is that if someone is going to ST, they're going to do it with more ST-appropriate weapons like super fast rapiers/daggers. On the other hand, if that's the modus operandi of 'melee', then *any* way of wielding Unleashed may be seen as inferior. I'm really not sure.

Either way, if we forget balance and the meta-game, Unleashed is done for me. Her synergy with Flame Whip...sorry, Surge has me extremely excited.

Yeah, flat elemental and it requiring fast rapiers / daggers pisses me off to no end. ST exacerbates the issue as well. sigh.

Flame Surge? On Unleashed? Are you hinting that it allows damage from non-weapon sources? Interesting...

The leash is 'can only deal damage with this weapon'.

It's been my safety net, my security blanket and my pacifier.

To say I'm nervous about removing it is a massive, massive understatement.

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Charan wrote:

The leash is 'can only deal damage with this weapon'.

It's been my safety net, my security blanket and my pacifier.

To say I'm nervous about removing it is a massive, massive understatement.

I'm surprised that you would consider it!

But it does make a lot of thematic sense.

Can't wait to see how the final draft turns out :)

What a great thread, spend most of my free sunday to read all of your interesting insights. Thanks for all of your contributions to the game and I absolutely love reading all these inner thoughts from design-a-unique supporters!


Oh, and by the way:

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dlrr wrote:

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Crevox wrote:

...Infernal Mantle...

...I can't imagine the hell the NuclearRaven had to go through for no fault of his/her own.

My seventeenth character is gearing up to wear my Infernal Mantle. I'm happy with it and very much looking forward to playing around with it.

Rant on brothers and sisters!

if you remove that affix and it's keeping the crit from scorned, it's going to almost automatically be a pretty crazy coc weapon.

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TheEnforcer wrote:

if you remove that affix and it's keeping the crit from scorned, it's going to almost automatically be a pretty crazy coc weapon.

The crit from Scorned is gone. One of the key drawbacks is reflected ignites. So...y'know, small mercy.

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Batemizoor wrote:

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Charan wrote:

I've provided so much evidence to the contrary, and I haven't even mentioned Lioneye's Glare yet...

The biggest game breaking uniques have almost all been internally designed, so you'd do really, really well to stop drawing lines between custom designs and the notion of 'OP' uniques.

See, you seem so insistent on finding evidence that is consistent with your argument. Auxium, Voltaxic Rift, Aegis Aurora, Rise of the Phoenix, Alpha's Howl, Bino's - all of those made it through as well, as final drafts. I don't know the exact ratio of supporter to GGG contribution on these and perhaps they are not quite as ridiculous as Soul Taker, but the point still remains: AA allowed you to tank indefinitely, RotP has messed with the state of max resistances and subsequently skills like Righteous Fire, Alpha's Howl has certainly contributed to the difficulty GGG has in balancing auras, and etc. You say that the status ailment situation is fragile, but what about the aura situation? The max res situation? Every item added that is as impactful as these will contribute to the mechanical bloat that you are so concerned about. Of course at $1000, maybe you deserve to do just that, but that is why your complaints seem inconsistent to me.

You make a fair point. I do tend to overlook items that dance somewhere between 'nice and strong' and 'blatantly OP'. To me, Soul Taker was something else, precisely because it was 100% dev designed but 100% supporter funded. That makes it unique in my eyes regarding the process. As for these other items, I suspect their power comes from interaction with other items/gems. Soul Taker's power is blatant: no mana? No worries. Once you bring other factors into play, then I cannot see the unique as the sole blame-taker for its game-breaking potential. If you apply that to your list, then none of the uniques you mentioned are in the same league as Soul Taker. Or, since we're talking about GGG-designed uniques (regardless of who funded them) Shavronne's Wrapping, Lioneye's Glare (which was so powerful even Chris wasn't happy with the stats for a while), and of course good old Kaom's Heart, which worked perfectly for an earlier incarnation of PoE but sadly had to be cut down to size once the meta-game changed and changed and changed. I imagine there were some people at GGG rather upset that their flagship unique (anyone who saw the old dev diary would know that Kaom's Heart was their posterchild for daring unique design) had to be retired, give or take, because the game around it changed too much. On the other hand, MTG mentality.

...They should just cycle out mirrors, since they're as close to a Black Lotus as this game gets.

(This is a lie. Soul Taker is -- Black Lotus gives you three free mana, any colour, once. Soul Taker gives you lots of free 'mana'. As much as you want. Technically, Soul Taker is even worse design than the old Lotus. Go figure.)

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Batemizoor wrote:

I don't have first-hand experience. That's why I'm playing devil's advocate, because many supporters are so emotionally invested in this that they might be failing to see the bigger picture. Don't get me wrong, if I had an item going in, I'd want to make damn sure I was perfectly satisfied as well and I'd probably be right there with you in your appeal. It's easy for you and many other supporters here because you are so conscientious about the impact of your item, but you're forgetting about all those who haven't posted, all those who want to break the game.

Those powerful custom uniques you mentioned before? Auxium, Bino's, Aegis Aurora, Alpha's Howl? As with Bringer of Rain, I'm familiar enough with the designers to know they're not the game-breaking types. Especially Neokolzia and Aux. And even if they are, it's GGG's responsibility to rein them in. There's no way any of those items entered the game with GGG fully aware they'd become integral ingredients in game-breaking configurations. And I'm still not convinced they are. They might be the most visible elements, but possibly not the 'key' to it all.

But thanks for bringing up AA. I'll tap Neo and see if he wants to chip in.

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Batemizoor wrote:

You keep hailing back to the good old times when GGG could invest so much time with designers. They are past this point - they have grown - and (I think) the game is better off for it. It seems somewhat selfish of you to believe any content updates should be stopped so that all supporter items can remain relevant or have a meaningful impact. But again, I say 'somewhat' because I know how much you have invested in this game and I know you will pull that card on me. I haven't invested anywhere near as much as you and so I apparently don't deserve to comment.

Eh, I'm not saying GGG should interrupt other aspects of the game's development at all. I'm saying their initial promise cannot be kept. Not will not, cannot. That the initial promise failed to take into account how thin their resources would be stretched, have been stretched. Also, it's not about the time allocated to custom designers -- I keep saying I know I was spoiled with Tipua time-wise, and I also said it was a waste: newer uniques are much more demanding of such time now that the game is much more complex. This is about their fundamental inability to satisfy some designers because the game changes too quickly, too erratically. Aren't there enough testimonials here for you to see this?

The whole 'grow up' thing was unnecessary and dramatically reduced my desire to even respond to you.

Finally, as a former mod, I crusaded for everyone to have the right to comment, to have their voice heard, regardless of supporter amount. If you think that's why I asked that, why I played that card, you're way off the mark. And I think you know that.

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Batemizoor wrote:

Fundamentally, I agree with most of what you have said, but at least consider some outsider perspective. If only to improve your own argument. Of course your complaints are warranted, I found them as insightful as anyone else in this thread. I just think you need to remember this game has to keep growing bigger to remain competitive. And sometimes that means making sacrifices.

Look at my signature. It's a restating of another sentiment I've had since, well, late closed beta in fact: GGG have bitten off way more than they can chew. They have two options: cut the pie, or get a bigger mouth. Cutting the pie isn't considered, because Chris yet believes that newer-more-newer-more is how to get/keep supporters, and a bigger mouth isn't possible because it's damn hard to get new staff in NZ.

The only sacrifice this game needs right now is GGG's notion that they're still a little indie company in NZ and that this is going to see them through. That phase is *long gone*. The 'partnership' with Garena? Proof that they're aware of it, but not in my opinion the smartest way to move forward.

But that's a whole other thread. The core of this one isn't to find solutions or propose fixes (other than obvious ones, like no more double dipping). It's to note a failure that most players can't see, corroborated by the experiences of others who have seen it. It was prompted by an Announcement that was even more insular and ignorant to the larger picture than I ever have been regarding item design. The person who wrote it is relatively new, so that has to be taken into account.

Still, there has been a breakdown. It has caused bottlenecks. This is why GGG closed the road, but not before hundreds of people joined the traffic jam. Paid good money to do so, at that. Preference to get through is typically given to those who haven't yet done so -- which makes idiots like me sort of like someone who gets through the jam but then zooms around to the back of the line. But it's not that linear either -- Zahndethus (praise his name) has made it through 4 times, because, I suppose, he's riding a bike, whereas some of us demand a big old Bentley each time...

Oddly enough, my last unique was designed pretty much on the fly when I visited the offices. Rory was like 'anything else you want to do?' and in a strange fit of selfishness (this was queue jumping of the highest magnitude!), I said sure, and we came up with my low level shield in no time.

Which to me just reinforces that the majority of this breakdown is one of communication.

Two random thoughts about poorly designed uniques:

-Soultaker depends on the meta to be overpowered (correct me if I'm wrong =D). If more mana is available somehow (less aura reservation, mana leech, blood magic passive actually being useful) there are less reasons to use it. Maybe other choices can give more power to the user.
I don't think is going to be nerfed soon. Let's see the aura changes in the new patch.

-The new unique(s?) with a level dependant property have a transformative theme; they are not items you can use in the same character (it works as two uniques in one in function of the level). If a levelling affix that works for all levels is introduced, you have the risk the item becomes too useful for everyone (who wouldn't want a item that you don't need to think anything about, not even in maps?). You can make it for an early - mid level, but then, maybe levelling uniques fill that roll already. So, level-depending affixes should be the exception, not the rule, and with good reasons. Anyway, I'd like to hear about the level-depending uniques proposed by those who buyed the right to assist in the design. I could be awfully wrong, :P

PS for GGG, whose people read the thread: acuity deserves a nerf. It's infuriating Vaal Pact was arruined, and THAT thing was released, a old-Vaal-Pact-like item for critical-strike-builds. And without the no regeneration drawback. It makes a keystone irrelevant for those who already have too much power anyways. That was shitty.

I agree with a lot that you have said Charan.

I too have had problems with my design. My original idea was submitted last July or August and was rejected. I was told that there was already a ring coming out with a gem slot, and already an item coming out that did the other part of my design idea. While the ring base did come out (and really that as a reason to not accept the idea was pretty ridiculous in my opinion, seeing as that it only helped my unique be possible by adding a gem-slotted ring base, and the unique associated to the base has absolutely nothing closely related to my idea), no item with the other part of the design has been released. Unfortunately I had put a lot of thought and math into the design to be ready for number negotiating, so it is quite disheartening to be shot down and 1 reason be bogus (in my opinion) and the other never happening (so far...).

My second idea was shot down but it was purely due to the mechanics not being possible due to system limitations of damage conversion, which I am totally cool with.

Now much busier with school and work, and from hearing about other design problems, I don't even want to bother with it any more.