(Helping GGG in) Creating a unique item: a breakdown of the breakdown
" Oh that's alright. They did mention that non-chanceables were tied to either boss drops or crafting recipes and to err from this would confuse players. Unfortunately they thought I hated the chance mechanic when I explicitly stated that I despised lotteries and seemed to have skimmed over that point. I was given the option of making it craftable at the expense of the unique's power because they feared that it would "adversely affect the economy". Always the economy argument - which, I might add, I set the crafting requirements to include a Tyrannical weapon of Phantasm which as many will know is not an easy combination to roll. I certainly did account for economy when I designed it. I really wanted to have a fun scavenger hunt like you did for yours..but not at the expense of a fun unique. By now, Nick should understand how meticulous I am with my designs given that I gave them a spreadsheet calculating all the important things of my original design. |
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" I'm still reading, but I'm going to quote this. All I can say is... duh? That's the point. The game is ever-evolving, ever-changing. They're not going to keep in touch with hundreds of people asking them "hey bro we need to nerf this item, how do you think we should nerf it?" They're not going to collaborate the game's balance and design with hundreds of other people. When an item needs a nerf, it needs a nerf, and the game's developers and designers are going to be the ones that dictate that. You don't deserve a say in this matter, nor any notification that it's happening. It is how it is. Honestly, a lot of what you said should've been expected. Balancing a game like this, especially one with such freedom and customization, needs to be done carefully. You can't blame them for trying to maintain balance. When it comes to the axe that adds crit chance per level, that's a bit more understandable than most things. Critical chance is not a stat that's going to influence your base character power. You could get +5000% crit chance from that axe, but if it still does a small amount of damage, who cares? It adds some interesting synergies for sure, and that's the goal of a unique. For most players, they're not going to hold onto it as they level, compared to something like heirlooms from WoW or something that just gives you more +damage +health per level or something. While I'm not a game designer for PoE, I think this item works just fine, and it's understandable why they allowed the design for it to move forward. As for the Infernal Mantle unique, things happen. The unique is still good, nothing went wrong. Yeah, people complained that it was stuck to the same unique as Shavronne's, but who cares? It was bound to happen sooner or later with any unique. It's just the nature of the game. A lot of what you said should have been obvious to you if you are the designer you make yourself out to be. It sounds more to me like you are looking back and resenting your own foolishness, thinking you could make anything you wanted, which obviously would not have been the case. Lastly: " This should be extremely obvious and it should probably be in an agreement when moving forward with the money, for those that can't/couldn't figure it out on their own (you). " This is no "lesson." Any base item, current or future, could have any number of uniques added to it. You have no control over that. Put it on whatever you want, because either way, it will happen. In the end, your own nearsight about how action RPGs function and evolve caused a lot of this. Such things will happen when someone without enough knowledge of a game, or genre, tries to design components for it. Last edited by Crevox#7597 on Jul 25, 2014, 6:56:59 AM
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" -evil glint- Perhaps I may best sum my negative feelings (though admitted I don't feel this way all the time) with: "I feel like GGG has taken on too many uniques such that they view the process as one that they try to undertake with minimal effort where possible. Clearly, if one has an idea as great as say, Hrishi's, they may bestow you with more love. But more often than not, they will always push for the easiest route with your unique. What's most infuriating is how they seemingly use a different ruleset for GGG uniques (case in point: Atziri-gated shit. Those gloves are f-ing ridiculous.)" " I've never had a google doc before actually. All via email. Perhaps a google doc would have made it clearer to GGG my frustrations with their changes. " Lyralei's right, andkamen. Ultimately, they have full veto rights. Me digging my heels in would just result in no unique unfortunately. And I'm an unknown amongst the devs so don't think they'd give me the time of day. I know Charan's managed to get some stuff through by insisting but lots of stuff he was made to give up as well. " Good that you think it's a good unique, but if I were the creator and saw how everyone dissed my item I lovingly crafted and paid an arm and a leg for, I'd be devastated. Already with Dyadus getting complaints for being weak, it hurts me a little every time I see a simple complaint like that. I can't imagine the hell the NuclearRaven had to go through for no fault of his/her own. " I was about to suggest that you make your unique a boss drop. Then I realised I absolutely hate all the current boss drop uniques in the game. I'm sorry, Lyralei. That's a shitty situation. Last edited by dlrr#2847 on Jul 25, 2014, 7:09:53 AM
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Lyra
make your item a Uber-rare-rare-category one, that way it can´t be chanced by 99,8734% of the players then proceede to counter with the following cards: -if they say its too strong, you say its intended to offer reward for rarity -if they say its affecting economy, you say its intended to have a functionality -if they say its balance, you say balance of the month -if they say no, you say its your job to create items, not to just look at them. the game has a broad audience with all kind of dislikes and likes, just pick the right ones to counter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drDs-Y5DNH8
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" If the game weren't so centralized around auras and IAS, then I'd imagine your unique would see a lot more love. I think its really cool and I must admit yours was partial inspiration to my unique (which, unfortunately that portion of the unique got dropped completely.). NuclearRaven's unique falls under the same aura-stigma unfortunately. Regarding your unique: I'd throw it on an Animate Guardian to proc the 40% burning damage multiplier for flameblast/detonate dead players. People look at things too one-dimensionally. They look at the DPS/IAS and instantly proclaim its shit. " Que sera, sera. I would like that but there isn't a monster related to "maps". If there were, I'd like that since it fits my community contributor role. Closest match would probably be Trinian, Intellectus Prime. " Hey. Its rarity on the 1-4 scale is a tier between Kaom's Heart/Tipua/Shavronne's and the one below it. I compromised on this because its a build-enabler. Also, doesn't resolve the fact that people are going to attempt to hold lotteries to chance it. I think I might die a little inside every time someone holds one for the unique I designed. Alas we can't have everything. Last edited by Lyralei#5969 on Jul 25, 2014, 7:48:07 AM
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" If you design a unique map, it can have a unique boss. And that boss can have a chance to drop said unique. It does require 2 unique "items" created though :P also that item that you wanted to have camouflaged predator mod, was it released in some form at all or its still a work in progress LLD BOTW spark/arc caster guide http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1133731
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" My guild does have a lot of diaternals ;) Unfortunately Camouflaged Predator got dropped. It was initially given the green light but they did a double take and said no sometime down the line. Was pretty upset for awhile about that. I'll explain in detail about it when I write the post-mortem. As for my unique. You will see it very soon. In the meantime, I left some clues in Charan's avatar thread. Might want to wander over there.. Last edited by Lyralei#5969 on Jul 25, 2014, 7:56:46 AM
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Regarding camouflage predator, anyone else notice its not spawning in the nemesis mods in the 1 month?
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" Firstly, I almost never play the gender card, but 'hey bro' is not the best way to start your argument as regards GGG's approach to this. There are quite a few female Diaternals and it seems to me that your dismissal of this, your decision that this is a 'boys club' or some sort of 'bro club' is key to your stance. GGG and the custom designers do not and never will have a 'hey bro' relationship. Too much money changed hands for that. In fact, GGG are professional enough that I can't imagine them prefacing a discussion with any supporter that way. That you'd feel otherwise REALLY tells me a lot. Now, if it where a 'duh' thing, why are so many other Diaternals finding this insightful? If you want to be contrary, that's cool...but don't criticise the invention of sliced bread as obvious just because you a) didn't think of it first and b) you take it for granted. And I don't think it's unrealistic of me to expect them to keep in touch with the custom designers -- like I said, you're looking at a grand supported, minimum. For a fucking computer game. You'd better believe that warrants at least some modicum of good customer service and 'aftercare'. Also, they wouldn't have to keep in touch with hundreds of people because the vast majority of custom uniques don't need rebalancing. The design process is, by and large, very thorough in that regard. This thread was never really about that, but given the high profile and visibility of Bringer of Rain, and the fact that GGG offered its designer a *job* designing uniques (which he turned down only due to geography and logistics), I think it was utterly remiss of them not to at least get his take on the situation. " You seem to have failed to grasp the basic issue here: GGG DID collaborate the game's balance and design with hundreds of other people. If you want to talk about the minority of said items that need balance/nerfing, that's fine, but drop this 'hundreds of people' thing as regards the need for intensive aftercare -- my point is that IF a unique needs that (and it's almost certainly because of the shifting metagame around the item, not the design of the item itself), then the devs should contact the person who funded that item, if only as a courtesy. Because 'courtesy' and 'communication' are two things that GGG pride themselves on. Even now. You seem to be embracing a reality where they act far more like a studio that doesn't give two shaky fucks about their supporters/customers. It'd probably be better for GGG if they'd established that mien from the get-go, because they're caught in a trap right now of being remembered as spectacularly open and involved with their customer base, but unable to maintain that given how complicated and convoluted the game has gotten. But the reality is GGG are founded on courtesy and communication as regards their relationship with their customers. This can be found in the standard of Support (especially via email), the quality of the announcements, and the fact that Chris is *still* no more than an email away -- he really should employ a PA or something... Point being, 'you don't deserve a say in this matter' isn't yours to call. It's theirs, and I don't believe they ever would. Is it implicit? It's fast becoming so, and that's not something GGG expected. I daresay it's not something they even wanted. Because whatever you may think, we who design our items, we know them inside out. While we don't 'own' them, the time and effort we've put into shaping them warrants at *least* a simple missive from GGG if said item needs to be changed. I speak from experience -- when Tipua's rarity was changed, Chris let me know. But that was My First Unique -- back when things were much more direct and less...messy. " I blame them for letting it get out of hand. And they know it has. They know they're chasing the tail of the metagame now. This is where they are, and it's where they're going to be stuck for as long as the game is a mix of trading, high-end repetition and severe RNG-based item acquisition. As long as they're dedicated to changing the Skilldrasil every 4-6 months, then their priority must be this balance you're talking about. And that's fine, but you cannot fault me to reminding other designers what this means to them. Because a lot of us were here before all that. You perhaps don't grasp how long some people have waited to make their items -- so long that they've had to change either their ideas or their designs as a result of what's going on in the game. This could only have been avoided if GGG had kept a tighter hold on the bloat and the powercreep, which they absolutely did not. The cake that GGG want to have, being a firm grip on powercreep, cannot be the cake that GGG want to eat, being trade as the 'highest priority' (a sentiment I think they've left behind internally but the damage is done, possibly permanently). Because the key to having to constantly trade up items is having 'manageable powercreep'. I don't much care for how you've expounded upon the crit axe. My point about that was that buff-per-level was something several designers have been told wouldn't be done. What that buff per level is is irrelevant to me -- although for the record, all I wanted was a little damage jump per level so that Tipua Kaikohuru would 'grow' with the wielder. It might have saved me some money, because I'd never have thought of doing the Goddess trilogy if Tipua Kaikohuru were allowed true growth. On the other hand, restrictions encourage innovation and I am very pleased with the designs of both swords so far. But as I said, neither brushed against the 'real' game, that being level 50+. Unleashed will be the real test of whether or not GGG can truly implement an item worthy of my vision with THEIR stats. I strongly doubt it, but it's still going to be a collector's item, so that shall have to suffice. That axe? Sure, it'll be fine. Probably. Not the point, so please try to stay on topic here. " It was 'not' bound to happen sooner or later. If Infernal Mantle had its own unique slot, 100% of the hate it receives, and my god it's a lot, would have been avoided. I'm not going to get into the details because I already have before. You can find the thread if you want. Search for 'double-dip' in Gameplay Discussion. It's a dead issue as far as I'm concerned. IM will be 'troll mantle' for as long as Shavronne's is around and breaking the game left and right. Doesn't even matter if you explain to people how drops work. It won't sink in. And it shouldn't have to. GGG has a *massive* range of items yet to get a unique counterpart, and double dipping was just fucking stupid. " 1. Never made myself out to be a designer. I'm a dude who threw a lot of money at GGG to indulge my ego by putting a few items into the game that I'd like to wield. If I were a designer, I daresay my entire approach would have been different. But 'being a designer' wasn't something that GGG said was a requisite for me to 'help' design a custom unique. As Kaysee said, the problem there lies with a lack of clear parameters as to what the custom designer can and can't do. I have already outlined what I DID do with both swords, and the degree of freedom was pretty amazing. I was spoiled and do not even hesitate to admit that. But that's the standard GGG set and it was impossible to maintain. 2. Do not throw the word 'obvious' around when you're not the one who made the thread. We'll never know how obvious it was to you because you're just reacting to something I and others have been discussing, as though you'd gotten it all along (special you!). You have very little veracity in that regard. 3. I do not resent my own foolishness, but I do lament it. Learn the difference between those two words, because it's very clear in the tone of my OP that I am more sad than angry. But I do blame GGG because they indulged that foolishness happily. The result was pretty good, but I have a feeling they didn't expect what I'd do next. Erik was all for a 'second' version of the sword (Mark1 had some reservations for how I implemented it, and I totally respected that). A third version, however? It's dragging on. Big time. And I have a feeling that by the time Unleashed is done, Act 4 will be ready and we'll have to rebalance the whole damn thing for a craptonne of new content. My foolishness was very specific: I underestimated how long it'd take to do this AND how much the game would change in the interim. Yes, I should have seen it coming with the way Chris, bless his truly good heart, throws around the MTG model (paradigm of pay to win and pay-just-to-stay-relevant) as though it can or should apply to a free to play ARPG. 4. I did make what I want. Twice. And I'll do it again, but the process is such a slog that I don't think I'll be entirely proud of it, not as proud as I am of Tipua Kaikohuru or even Goddess Scorned. Every time I look at that third sword I'm going to remember the ways GGG tied me in knots for the past year. I'd go into specifics but a) not your business and b) spoilers, sweetie. 5. I'd be wondering if I'd somehow written the OP incorrectly judging by your amazingly off-the-mark reactions, but too many other people posting here got it. Sorry, it's not me; it's you. " Me, and so many others, so drop the poor attempt at condescension. You're already pretty much done, so it's not helping you here. Again, if it were so obvious, why are other Diaternals responding positively? Why are non-designers expressing that this is 'enlightening' or 'insightful'? I'm an insider. I'm about as inside as a non-GGG employee can get, and even though I have turned from the game, I do not turn from GGG. Even now, I post stuff like this not to attack GGG but to help their highest supporters maintain a good, healthy working relationship. I realise what I've said there vaguely contradicts Nightmare's reaction to not being informed that BoR was going to be changed, or asking for his input, but these tips are MEANT to contradict what I'd detailed before them because they are the bitter lessons, the realities that a custom designer must embrace. I've already dealt with your flippant and quite frankly unfounded usage of 'obvious', and won't waste time returning to it. Unless you plan to design an item yourself, those tips and lessons really don't apply to you. " You're just repeating yourself here. I choose not to. My argument against double-dipping has been made elsewhere, and devs have responded. No one should pay 1k and go through the ridicule and humiliation NuclearRaven did. The first to agree would be GGG. I can ask Chris directly if you'd like, but I already know his answer. All I stated here was we DO get to choose our base item, so be a pal to everyone and pick an item that hasn't been done yet. Help fill those ranks. Resist the urge to high-end if possible, because that's where things are least stable. In fact, GGG would have been smart to put a restriction on the level range of uniques custom designers could do. But they had no idea how volatile their meta-game, the post-game, was going to get. So I can't blame them for not. They shouldn't double-dip either way. There's virtually no gain from it, and plenty to lose. Double-dipping when over 75% of your base items don't have a single unique is *fucking stupid*. " Blame GGG for that 'nearsight' because they made clear, throughout closed beta, this game was going to be different. It wasn't up to us to know how it would evolve. It was up to them to regulate it, to make its evolution comprehensible and user-friendly, especially for custom designers. As to your passive-aggressive but about as subtle as a brick-in-a-sock claims that I am ignorant to ARPGs...not even worth addressing. And even if I were, does that mean GGG should not have taken my money for the custom design? Because that's basically what you're saying. And they call ME elitist! https://linktr.ee/wjameschan -- everything I've ever done worth talking about, and even that is debatable. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Jul 25, 2014, 8:20:14 PM
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" It got removed entirely after or while the 4-month nemesis. Personally I liked it but it may have caused many RIPs at high levels. Dunno about that exactly. |
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