(Helping GGG in) Creating a unique item: a breakdown of the breakdown

My experience with discussing it so far has been that it's probably easiest to try figure out a theme for the unique, and then say "any ideas how to fulfill this theme ingame?", as it allows you the most creativity from someone who understands the limitations of the engine and what is easily done or next to impossible. If you get a couple suggestions you can work from, it's generally easier to polish the idea from there.

Most of all I think the thing to keep in mind is that it will be a long process, and not feel rushed into finishing it (which is something that probably could been stated more clearly on getting those supporter packs)

@dlrr, if your ignore party aura mod is thematically different from that 2H sword then why dont you just try and stick to it as charan suggested? I have 0 experience of working with GGG but if you explain the idea over and over wont something eventually stick, so to say?

I feel like a lot of the issues expressed are due to the poor form of communications. Emails are slow, indirect and inefficient.

Setting up a direct form of communication through an instant messenger or skype call would resolve issues far faster and allow a rapid trading of ideas. Giving some form of time limit could be good if this can be organized for several supporters in a row.

Something like a 15 minute session each with a unique being finalized within a few sessions.In between sessions the dev can confirm if a certain idea can work or not. Supporters should have several ideas before having these meetings so they're not relying on one specific aspect that might not work.

Even without the whole organized system just having some people IMing is far better than waiting for email responses.

@charan, I made two The Goddess Scorned uniques in the previous 4 month league. Although I didnt use them in a build but as a skin transfer because they look so awesome.

My LLD char uses one of those.

Do *not* apologise, dlrr. You have captured the essence of this thread. And what is that?

The healthy expression of frustration and disappointment in GGG's handling of a high priority program, one that made them *hundreds of thousands of dollars*.

Too often have these forums made it seem as though our status as the 'big supporters' does not allow us to give vent to these problems.

We are not broadly condemning PoE or even GGG. We acknowledge, I think, that the game is a success and that GGG is doing an incredible job. But that acknowledgment is implicit and comes in the form of...our support.

Thus any negative feedback we may have should be all the more considered.

Rant on, brother.

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kasub wrote:

I feel like a lot of the issues expressed are due to the poor form of communications. Emails are slow, indirect and inefficient.

Setting up a direct form of communication through an instant messenger or skype call would resolve issues far faster and allow a rapid trading of ideas. Giving some form of time limit could be good if this can be organized for several supporters in a row.

Something like a 15 minute session each with a unique being finalized within a few sessions.In between sessions the dev can confirm if a certain idea can work or not. Supporters should have several ideas before having these meetings so they're not relying on one specific aspect that might not work.

Even without the whole organized system just having some people IMing is far better than waiting for email responses.

Actually, the majority of the design is done via shared google document. It's very efficient and 'interactive' but that doesn't mean you can't get frustrated at waiting for replies to your comments only to be told 'no' and having to ask 'why' and then...and THEN being told the why as something you just couldn't have seen coming.

My basic...my most basic point remains. We are, at best, 'guest designers' in the process, and to overstep that bound and forget your place is met with a gentle reminder that your role is largely creative, nothing more.

The point stands regardless. If GGG were at a stage where they were willing to allow an item like Soul Taker into the game on their own accord, then surely it would have found its way in with a supporter twisting their leg.

I do not disagree that the design-a-unique 'promise' can no longer be met, but my point was that I think you're forgetting the impact that such a commitment would have on the game as a whole.

You complain about items like Three Dragons tampering with fundamental aspects of the game and then complain that designers are too limited in expressing their ideas. You have a right to complain given your investment, but at least keep your complaints consistent.

And isn't it better that GGG has the courtesy to say that a mechanic of your item may be invalid in the future, or that it is shared with another ongoing design, than to simply put it in the game without word? Wouldn't you rather the minor disappointment of having an idea rejected - with the possibility to come up with another - than the major disappointment of having your published item becoming obsolete? I know this is one exact point you made in the OP (power creep (e.g., Reaper's Pursuit) or nerfs without warning (e.g., Bringer)) but doesn't this rejection behaviour indicate that they are trying to avoid this kind of disappointment - they are trying to satisfy you in the long-term.

It's clear that GGG were in over their head with the custom designs, but it's too late now when there are literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in their bank as a result. At least they're trying to maintain some kind of balance between the satisfaction of supporters whilst keeping the game unbroken.

You seem to be trying to hang on to some special period of time before open beta when GGG were young and could cater to the need of every player. The game has grown, GGG has grown, and now you need to as well.

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Batemizoor wrote:

The point stands regardless. If GGG were at a stage where they were willing to allow an item like Soul Taker into the game on their own accord, then surely it would have found its way in with a supporter twisting their leg.

What?

This entire thread is about how GGG's internal unique design runs contrary to what supporters have asked for, and you're going to claim that if GGG designed and released a unique, then it's likely...if not probable that a designer doing the same would have been allowed?

Words. I can't find them. My jaw is working its way through shock and disbelief. Slowly.

Soul Taker *slipped through the very cracks that Rory, Erik and now Nick are so cautious to watch*. You seem to believe that the internal unique design process is held to the same standard and scrutiny as custom-designed ones. I've provided so much evidence to the contrary, and I haven't even mentioned Lioneye's Glare yet...

The biggest game breaking uniques have almost all been internally designed, so you'd do really, really well to stop drawing lines between custom designs and the notion of 'OP' uniques. That which has been rejected despite making it past the email phase is typically rejected not because it'd be too strong, but because it is too hard to do/'contrary to GGG's intentions'/conflicting with other things they're working on.

In fact, no custom designer would *ever* have had the balls to ask for an item that ignores mana the way ST does. We just don't think that crazily, and at a grand+, you better believe most of us don't want the game broken that easily. I'm sure there have been lots of stupid proposals (I've heard some of them, anonymously), but there are some things you just don't think to ask for, and a means of basically neglecting mana costs is one of them.

We are the big fish. We are the ones who believe/d in what GGG is doing, who reject RMT and want the game to be balanced and interesting. And you're going to claim that the only thing keeping this game from being a wild festival of overpowered custom-made items is GGG?

Sorry. I...yeah. No.

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Batemizoor wrote:

I do not disagree that the design-a-unique 'promise' can no longer be met, but my point was that I think you're forgetting the impact that such a commitment would have on the game as a whole.

How have I done that? I more than just about anyone know what impact the commitment *has* had on the game as a whole.

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Batemizoor wrote:

You complain about items like Three Dragons tampering with fundamental aspects of the game and then complain that designers are too limited in expressing their ideas. You have a right to complain given your investment, but at least keep your complaints consistent.

...*deep breath* My complaint about 3D has nothing to do with my feeling that the designers are limited in expressing their ideas. I never once said that their way of 'expressing their ideas' was related to their own items. I am gobsmacked at the lines you're drawing. It's like you've turned an existing image into a dot-to-dot of your own making. It's very simple:

1) 3D fucks with a basic dynamic of virtually any RPG, and it does so with an abandon that exemplifies GGG's erratic approach to unique design, to the meta-game in general. The status ailment situation is fragile enough without this sort of idiocy

2) The limitation of expression between us and GGG is solely about the custom design process. It's about communication. It's NOT about them designing items that 'express their ideas'. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm just repeating myself here. Moving on...

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Batemizoor wrote:

And isn't it better that GGG has the courtesy to say that a mechanic of your item may be invalid in the future, or that it is shared with another ongoing design, than to simply put it in the game without word? Wouldn't you rather the minor disappointment of having an idea rejected - with the possibility to come up with another - than the major disappointment of having your published item becoming obsolete? I know this is one exact point you made in the OP (power creep (e.g., Reaper's Pursuit) or nerfs without warning (e.g., Bringer)) but doesn't this rejection behaviour indicate that they are trying to avoid this kind of disappointment - they are trying to satisfy you in the long-term.

You have missed the point. Dramatically. It seems you're fixating on the idea that the argument is that we want things we ask for put in willy-nilly. There is no evidence of that in this thread anywhere. The point is their communication is limited because not even they know what they're doing half the time. An item design may be a-okay one day, but then a week later it'll need to be modified because of something else, something new. Communication within the GGG offices is *not* a strong point, and that is reflected in the communication required between a few of the devs and dozens of custom designers at once.

And yes, this rejection behaviour, this tightening of the belt, does it indicate they are 'trying' to satisfy designers in the long run. It's not the rejection that is the issue. Damn, I'm repeating myself again. It's the way the rejections occur and the helplessness a so-called item designer feels as they occur. I hate to pull this card on you, but what experience do you have working with GGG on item design? Moreover, why are you so adamantly rejecting first-hand experiences of those who have?

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Batemizoor wrote:

It's clear that GGG were in over their head with the custom designs, but it's too late now when there are literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in their bank as a result. At least they're trying to maintain some kind of balance between the satisfaction of supporters whilst keeping the game unbroken.

You're trying to play the apologist with veteran apologists. This whole 'at least they're trying' thing is fine for the game itself -- it's free to play, it's indie. But for something that cost a user a thousand bucks if not more? No, 'at least they're trying' doesn't cut it. Again, until you've experienced the frustration (did you actually read this thread?), your interest in this is purely that of an outsider, to whom words come easily and cheaply.

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Batemizoor wrote:

You seem to be trying to hang on to some special period of time before open beta when GGG were young and could cater to the need of every player. The game has grown, GGG has grown, and now you need to as well.

That probably sounded much more pithy in your head than it looks to me. This game has grown (beyond their control), GGG has grown (but not as much as PoE needs them to), and I need to as well (...what is that? Some poorly-veiled claim that my complaints are immature and unwarranted?)

oh, and btw: your *guild co-leader* has posted his experiences here, and his frustrations, expressed to me privately (and thus not named in the OP) were part of why I made this thread. I suggest if you want some perspective on this, go have a chat with him.

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andkamen wrote:

@dlrr, if your ignore party aura mod is thematically different from that 2H sword then why dont you just try and stick to it as charan suggested? I have 0 experience of working with GGG but if you explain the idea over and over wont something eventually stick, so to say?

No. They may try to accommodate your request and suggest alternatives but a no is a no. Believe me, I've tried with the camouflaged predator mod I wanted on my unique.

Nick tried to fight for me when I wanted my unique non-chanceable but he was vetoed. I fucking hate how people might do stupid lotteries to get my unique so I wanted to prevent that but they said no anyway.

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Lyralei wrote:

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andkamen wrote:

@dlrr, if your ignore party aura mod is thematically different from that 2H sword then why dont you just try and stick to it as charan suggested? I have 0 experience of working with GGG but if you explain the idea over and over wont something eventually stick, so to say?

No. They may try to accommodate your request and suggest alternatives but a no is a no. Believe me, I've tried with the camouflaged predator mod I wanted on my unique.

Nick tried to fight for me when I wanted my unique non-chanceable but he was vetoed. I fucking hate how people might do stupid lotteries to get my unique so I wanted to prevent that but they said no anyway.

:( I feel bad for you, my friend, since mine is non-chanceable -- although its root item is, which might be part of why they allowed that. Still, craftable, non-chanceable uniques are awesome. I've expressed sufficiently why.

The game needs more actual crafting recipes.