Salvaging CI - Suggestions open to discussion

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B_TAHKE wrote:

I can get far better returns then my hp/es shadow gets 300 Int venturing into inefficient for ES dex part of the tree, could get more. 30% more with life oh nice I would clearly get it. In fact even maradeur with 100-150 int just would get ES armor gear.

It's never going to be a flat +30% ES buff. First of all, that bonus would replace the current bonus, so your ES would go down a bit before getting the +x% more ES. For every build with less than +100% ES from passives, the change would actually result in less total ES. Only dedicated ES builds would gain a significant advantage.

And how much ES does a hybrid Shadow have, anyways? Certainly not more than 2000? So you'd maybe get a net 400 bonus to ES, which, if you have about 1000 HP and 2000 ES is a 7,5% bonus to eHP.

Actually, looking at the numbers, it might even be fine to keep the current percentage and just change it to more ES as is.

I mostly agree with bassdoken. Perhaps removing the ES cancellation from Acrobatics, making status ailment/stun chance apply to ES with CI, and/or making ES regen instantly after usual cooldown with CI (cf. first post of this thread) could solve the ES issues, without making it too powerful?

I just think CI needs to give about +20% ES
Completely removing the ES bonus was a tad too much, but it was no doubt too strong before.

All about the golden middle.

First, full disclosure: I have never played a character with CI, though I was building a Witch towards it before I changed my main to a Ranger. So I propose the following with absolutely no experience:

Since the recent nerf to CI removed one of its - arguably OP - benefits, would it be appropriate to reduce the penalty to HP was to some thing much less severe than "all except 1 HP"? If CI changed to "Maximum Life -50%, Immune to Chaos Damage" would it be overpowered?

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brutalman wrote:

Since the recent nerf to CI removed one of its - arguably OP - benefits, would it be appropriate to reduce the penalty to HP was to some thing much less severe than "all except 1 HP"? If CI changed to "Maximum Life -50%, Immune to Chaos Damage" would it be overpowered?

Maybe not OP, but certainly very strong.

With immunity to chaos damage, players could reserve that life away, no problem, especially if they focused in ES passives (and who doesn't when taking CI?). So they'd get a Blood Magic gem and add a 40% aura (let's say Haste). After reserving life they're under 35% max life... so the Low Life bonuses are enabled.

Non-casters would use Blood Rage, which they already do with CI but now they'd get about 30% increased attack speed they didn't get before.

Casters would grab Pain Attunement for 30% more spell damage, and perhaps dual-wield Redbeaks for even more low-life damage increases.

In the past I've suggested that CI reserve all but 1 of your life, knowing that these interactions would be found; your suggestion is like mine with a free aura tacked on.

All the ideas revolving around the retaining of any life (some % life kept, converted, etc.) break the idea of CI: the point is to not have to worry at all about life at all anymore. (This is another reason why status ailments and stun should be calculated on ES with CI; without this, life still gives a hidden bonus to a CI user). The point with notable passives is to change a game mechanic, not to fiddle with +%. Keeping a % of life, or adding +% ES (as it was before, and it felt sketchy) does not fit with the spirit of notable passives.

This is why all my suggestions up to now have been oriented towards mechanics change, and not some number/% of w/e.

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Cronos988 wrote:

Have Intelligence give +0,1% more Energy shield per point (about 30% more ES at 300 Int). That would bring the ES gain from Int in line with the HP gain from Str (which, because it affects base health, is multiplicative). Judging from the ES values posted in this thread, this could be about 800-1000 points of additional ES for CI users.

This... is not a good idea. It nerfs early game ES and buffs endgame, when it should do the opposite.

Let me pull some endgame numbers out of my ass (read: rounded #s from my witch)
1300 flat base ES and 500 int, thus +50% more ES instead of +100% increased.

Total ES without any +% ES passives: 2600 -> 1950 (1300*2 -> 1300*1*1.5)
With +100% increased ES from passives: 3900 -> 3900 (1300*3 -> 1300*2*1.5)
With +150% increased ES from passives: 4550 -> 4875 (1300*3.5 -> 1300*2.5*1.5)

As you can see, this would require considerable investment in +% increased ES passives before it even reaches the old levels of total ES. (The same amount you used to get from int)


EDIT: Or did you mean adding another ES bonus instead of replacing the old additive one? That... seems a bit too much. But it certainly would bring ES back to the old CI levels, and only for pure int specced characters. Interesting.

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brutalman wrote:

First, full disclosure: I have never played a character with CI, though I was building a Witch towards it before I changed my main to a Ranger. So I propose the following with absolutely no experience:

Since the recent nerf to CI removed one of its - arguably OP - benefits, would it be appropriate to reduce the penalty to HP was to some thing much less severe than "all except 1 HP"? If CI changed to "Maximum Life -50%, Immune to Chaos Damage" would it be overpowered?

No, just no. This would be even more severely overpowered. Free HP for auras with no risk of chaos damage + Pain Attunement + 2 Redbeaks. CI must set HP to 1. You don't want to see 20k DPS witches running around with absolute no weaknesses.

To be honest, the more and more I play with witches, the more I think the current CI is fine. It's a choice now instead of an obvious must-have no-brainer keystone. If anything, the early +% ES nodes could use a small buff.

One idea could be to add es used instead of life for relevant caluclations on each node so it is:
CI: ES used instead of life for elemental alignment and stun
ZO: ES used instead of life for reg, so 1% life reg nodes becomes 1% es reg nodes
Ghost Reaver: ES used instead of life for reg from life leech

This will help the stun problem, make ZO easier to use and make Vaal pact feel less forced.

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epeli wrote:

This... is not a good idea. It nerfs early game ES and buffs endgame, when it should do the opposite.

Let me pull some endgame numbers out of my ass (read: rounded #s from my witch)
1300 flat base ES and 500 int, thus +50% more ES instead of +100% increased.

Total ES without any +% ES passives: 2600 -> 1950 (1300*2 -> 1300*1*1.5)
With +100% increased ES from passives: 3900 -> 3900 (1300*3 -> 1300*2*1.5)
With +150% increased ES from passives: 4550 -> 4875 (1300*3.5 -> 1300*2.5*1.5)

As you can see, this would require considerable investment in +% increased ES passives before it even reaches the old levels of total ES. (The same amount you used to get from int)


EDIT: Or did you mean adding another ES bonus instead of replacing the old additive one? That... seems a bit too much. But it certainly would bring ES back to the old CI levels, and only for pure int specced characters. Interesting.

Fair enough, replacing the bonus like that probably wouldn't do much good. Maybe just leave the number as is? 60% more ES at 300 int? But that seems overpowered. Anyways, the gist of my statement was that if ES is supposed to be an alternative to HP, the ES gain from int should be in line with the HP gain from str.

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Cronos988 wrote:

Fair enough, replacing the bonus like that probably wouldn't do much good. Maybe just leave the number as is? 60% more ES at 300 int? But that seems overpowered. Anyways, the gist of my statement was that if ES is supposed to be an alternative to HP, the ES gain from int should be in line with the HP gain from str.

Just have Int provide flat ES? What is it for STR, 2:1?

Do that. See what happens.