[Article] Hardcore Game Design and Subsystems

Love this. Well done! /kowtow

Can we have this post stickied so it can get the views that it deserve?

Bump. Agree with OP.

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RicHSAD wrote:

A genuine challenge in a game is not something that you can overcome through copy/pasting.

Rule to live by!

I'm glad to see this article still getting bumped for newer players. I'll throw in my support with another bravo and bump

sorry to break it for you OP but you CANT' compare apples to oranges and let me explain it a bit...

Magic the gathering is a STRATEGY based TCG game
PoE is a ARPG game based on internet/computers

in TCG there is not "character" development, there is PLAYER (as human being) development (thus experience) this means that when i play 100 TCG games it is MY FAULT if i am not getting better (fighting same "power" decks)...thus the obstacles and restrictions exist cause it ASK from PLAYERS to overcome them....

the principle CANT' be applied in a computer based game , especially in a xRPG (Role Playing Game) game cause the obstacles are stoping the PLAYER but the game is based around YOUR CHARACTER...for example if my character deals 100 dps and kills a mob in 10 secs will deal that no matter how good I AM, i have to upgrade MY CHARACTER in order to do 1000dps...

and here come the obstacles and restrictions in the subsystems...if you build obstacles/restrictions in the PLAYERS then you arent' making the game HARDER you just make

a) more furstated (absense of trading, hell i can sell my mirror and get a uber piece of gear, EVENTUALLY i will get the uber item if i want to)
b) more "grindy" cause in the end doesnt' matter HOW hard you will make it for me, my character will deal 1000dps and WILL faceroll the content

so in an cRPG (Computer Role Playing Game) game you DONT' want obstacles/restrictions in the PLAYERS but you want them in the GAME...

i understand why you guys make up facts/opinions or whatever you search the internet just to prove that PoE is a hardcore game..but the facts are the below

A) get a party of friends and steamroll maps (split the currencies need for endgame)
B) get friends to share loots (no need for trading)
C) Just watch trading chat for 1 day and overprice an awesome item
D) Get friends to "share" maps

if you have the above then you have passed ALL the obstacles of PoE and you STEAMROLL the actual game....

do us a favour and start compare apples to apples and not to oranges

ps. Diablo3 is HARDER game than PoE EVEN if you AH (you need farm both for "gold",you need to find better gear to BOTH games) cause (at least when i left) you needed UBER GEAR in order to steamroll endgame...here in poe you just need time to grind the maps/currencies the game itself is easy (for people with more than 50IQ ofc...)
ps1. obvisouly you havent' played MtG do you?

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killbilly wrote:

do us a favour and start compare apples to apples and not to oranges

ps. Diablo3 is HARDER game than PoE EVEN if you AH (you need farm both for "gold",you need to find better gear to BOTH games) cause (at least when i left) you needed UBER GEAR in order to steamroll endgame...here in poe you just need time to grind the maps/currencies the game itself is easy (for people with more than 50IQ ofc...)
ps1. obvisouly you havent' played MtG do you?

As the devs are MtG fans and incorporated elements of the system it's a fair enough reference for a number of reasons.

Excellent post OP - more bumpage required! Sticky this shizz, somebody please.

Great post OP.

And about d3 being harder than PoE...

D3 was not hard when I played it, but mobs were overtuned, and MAJORITY of classes were inately gimped.

Now theres a difference between bad mechanics hard and "skill hard".

Thats the difference between PoE and D3.

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Deux wrote:

Great post OP.

And about d3 being harder than PoE...

D3 was not hard when I played it, but mobs were overtuned, and MAJORITY of classes were inately gimped.

Now theres a difference between bad mechanics hard and "skill hard".

Thats the difference between PoE and D3.

nop you just see what you want to see

in one hand you say that bad mechanics are not "skill hard" but in the other hand you say that PoE is different from D3 cause of what? ffa looting/no trading arent' restrictive (i am not gonna call them bad cause is subjective) mechanics? where is the skill in

a) spamming trading channel
b) playing the clickfest minigame

diablo3 the game was harder...it doesnt' matter if the mobs were overtuned or not....you just DIDNT' steamroll end game if you didnt' had gear / skills that synergy...where is the difference with poe?

you all praise the op but you fail to understand what he says....because in the end he says

PoE is a hardcore game (without any valid fact, he used the opinion of a senior developer of a different genre)

you choose what to see/read...

The bane of all ARPGs is that they cannot be balanced at all. And it breeds other problems.

If you make your game balanced very well, your game will eventually become stale with cookie-cutter builds.

You make it easy, and there gonna be a lot of viable and varying builds. But it's downside is that it's too easy for some people.

You make your game harder, and there gonna be far less viable builds. That's what we see currently in PoE.

Besides the whole ARPG genre is INCREDIBLY stale. PoE does something new but the genre itself is the same old 12-year-old crap.