[1.1.x] Cursed General (Tri Totem Raging Spirit / Summoner)

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1.8 sec : Self-Cast (6) / 3 Totems (4)
7.8 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (43)

Another assumption being made here is that a Self Cast reaches 26 and a Totem reaches 50. As the totems assume the caster's stats, the ratio always remains the same up to the cap.

I'm hitting 24 (11.5 self cast) RS. This takes 3.3 seconds for Self Cast and 5 seconds for totem to reach.

What are you hitting with your self cast and what gear are you using?

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MaddBomber83 wrote:

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Velkor wrote:

Sorry, the reason why I replied to Zinsho is because I find his statement (and yours) misleading.

Its not misleading at all. Lets look at a fight that lasts 8 seconds and see what happens:

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1.8 sec : Self-Cast (6) / 3 Totems (4)
7.8 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (43)

For the first 2 seconds of the fight, both casters are standing still spamming something (Totem vs Raging Spirit).

For the next 6 seconds the totem caster is done, they can now cast other spells (for instance, they can start self casting raging spirits; or curses; or skeletons; or whatever else they would like.

At the 8 second point what are they doing? The self caster has to continue casting RS to maintain their DPS; for the next minute the totem user does not.


Lets make a safe assumption that the totem user swaps to casting skeletons after laying down the totems.

At the 8 second point, the totem user has 12 Skeletons, 43 raging spirits, and can continue to move and do other things. The self caster is still standing there, spamming a single skill. Those 12 skeletons are putting out 9k DPS alive or doing 2k AoE DPS if they are dieing.


You can't really compare a self caster, standing still for 8 seconds and then remaining still for as long as they can to do DPS to a totem user who only needs 2 seconds and then can do whatever they like.

Good points. But that's assuming the typical fight last 8 seconds while typical fights (in a specific spot, without moving) are closer to 3-4 seconds.

Also, its true that the Totem Summoner can start doing other things after 1.8 second. However, a self-casting summoner could also use a single totem to summon more RS if he wanted to. He could also stop for 0.37 second and cast a 2.8 seconds duration Firestorm.

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Velkor wrote:

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Maddbomber83 wrote:

In a RS Totem Build that can maintain 50 or less RS, you will do 5% more damage than the same build that is self casting RS.

Wording it your way, a Self Cast RS Build that can maintain more than 26 raging spirits (26.25 is when they are equal) will do more damage than the same build using Totems.

Sorry, the reason why I replied to Zinsho is because I find his statement (and yours) misleading.

You insist on saying that a RS Totem build that can maintain 50 or less RS will do 5% more damage than a self-casting RS, while it's wrong.

Players reading that statement will think that there's no point in building a self-casting RS summoner. The truth is : a RS totem build will only do more damage if it can manage to produce more than twice as many RS than a self-casting RS summoner. And I showed in my previous post that, unless the fight last for a very long time (9 seconds or more), a RS totem summoner will summon less than twice the amount of RS than a self-casting summoner.

Having said that, there are other good reasons to run a totem RS character. I never said otherwise. I even said that the self-casting build comes with its fair share of issues, including very high mana regen requirements. Most importantly, the playstyle of both types of RS summoners are very different and this, alone, is a good enough reason to play one or another.

However, if players think that a totem RS summoner will deal 5% more damage than a self-casting one (which is wrong), they'll never even consider not using totems. The truth is, if dps is your priority, you should not run a RS totem summoner but a Self-Casting one.

My statement was that all else being equal (same cast speed, same damage modifiers, same gear and skilltree) you will deal 5% more damage using 3 totems than by self casting as long as you have not reached the 50 spirit cap. Once you reach that point adding more speed/duration will cause self-casting to deal more DPS until that point Totems will deal more damage.

This disregards point optimization, gear, playstyle. It also disregards DPS buildup and partial summonings (kill everything before you reach max spirits). If 3 totems max out at fewer than 50 spirits, they will be causing more DPS than self-casting in a static damage-test. I'm not claiming one is better than the other or has higher maximum burst, just looking at the damage output on paper. Game experience may vary based on current conditions.

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Velkor wrote:

Good points. But that's assuming the typical fight last 8 seconds while typical fights (in a specific spot, without moving) are closer to 3-4 seconds.

Also, its true that the Totem Summoner can start doing other things after 1.8 second. However, a self-casting summoner could also use a single totem to summon more RS if he wanted to. He could also stop for 0.37 second and cast a 2.8 second duration Firestorm.

I agree with that for sure. I would also counter that if a fight lasts 3-4 seconds than the DPS is probably good enough.


Another consideration on these short fights is what do you do for them?

I run, place totem 1 on edge of screen, run to it and place totem 2 on next part of screen and run again. The trail of skulls and minions is wiping things out, and you are moving very fast as you have very little to do.

The downside to this fast movement with totems is that when something good drops you have to track back to it.



I'll be updating the OP with much of our discussion to highlight the advantages of Self Cast vs Totem (right now it is just the advantages of Totem over Self Cast).

When I've updated it I'll post another reply as your input into making it correct would be appreciated.

As mentioned before, I think the differences largely comes down to play style, and not that one is better or more right than the other.

As you said, a person should not be picking Totem with the misunderstanding they will be doing more damage than a self cast; they should be picking totem because they prefer the play style.

Also, any optimizations that a self cast build does to maximize raging spirits will likely benefit the totem builds as well just by the nature of spell totem. I still need to spend some time going through your thread so I can steal any tricks / optimizations.

How have you been progressing? I have been reading non-stop about raging spirits and summoners in general. I think that is the big difference between a pure raging spirit character and an actual summoner who utilizes spirits is the other summon nodes.i think i would rather get ancestral bond and charisma than the scion duration nodes. Velkor's build might maximize spirits, but my build is already invested into ALL the summon nodes.

I've been progressing quite well as just a pure summoner with freezing pulse/faster casting as my only attack. I find myself wanting to spam desecrate/flesh offering in all my free time so I feel like the totem build, or a variant would suit my style. I have increased duration on flesh offering and desecrate right now and just recently started self casting the spirits to get a feel for them.



Have you found that cast when stunned is activating flesh offering enough? I have hatred as my dmg aura right now until I can support a 3rd aura (discipline is my other) and I find that flesh offering makes the team go nuts. I spam desecrate in one spot then cast the flesh offering on top to maximize the time etc.

Last question- how have you faired with CI without any way to prevent freeze? I have made one CI character and it sucked, even with more ES than I had life before the switch. I cant afford alphas howl or dream fragments yet...do all the summons keep you from dying to status ailments?
Anyways sorry for rambling! Keep us updatee though, I've saved up enough currency to get the totem armor and have my 18 respec points ready to swap to CI and ancestral bond. Let us know any changes!

I've not been able to play as much as I would like recently; tend to get in bursts at the game.

To give you a quick few answers though:

A lot of the minion nodes (all of the damage ones) help raging spirits; and as discussed, those Scion nodes are nice on paper but don't really justify the sacrifices needed for them.

If you are already playing a summoner, throw down some totems! You can also get that Soul Mantle for 5c ish and play around with dual summoner a bit as well (if you don't like it, then just resell the Soul Mantle). This will give you an idea if you like the style without needing to invest in the points.

Self Cast vs Cast On Stun is really a playstyle choice. You can certainly use that 4 link for active spells as you will have time to cast them.

When playing your character, listen for the 'Ahh!' sound, it is quick and often the graphics won't show anything different. That is you being stunned (depending on your stun recovery, you won't even notice). Cast on Stun triggers often enough that I'll use myself as a trigger (run in and take 2-3 hits for it to cast and then run out). You would be more effective casting it yourself, but I am lazy.

The primary style is actually avoiding getting hit (and with all the summons, there are lots of targets for the AI to get confused on). With that said, when I do get hit Flesh Offering procs often and it doesn't feel like it has a maximum range.


As for ailments, again; the play style is about not getting hit. I do run with remove status flasks though (and as CI it doesn't really matter if they are health or life) so I rarely have any problems.

I have encountered some rares that really kick the crap out of minions (large AoE freezes as an example). To counter them I typically have to pre place totems and then kite the boss around while keeping their pulses away from the totems while the RS take them down.

The problem I immediately had was that cast when stunned wasn't casting anything (that I could tell) because I would either never take damage or I would get killed *almost* immediately. I switched to CI from 2400 life and 1400 shield and now have about 3500 shield. At first I thought it was because my resis were a bit low...now I'm up to 66/75/75 and still can't take more than 1 hit from piety at all. I think maybe it's just me not ever having played CI before...hopefully I get used to it O_O

Right now my skill set up is:

flesh offering/enfeeble/lightning warp (had to ditch the cast when stunned. Having flesh offering up 100% of the time seems ideal)

raise zombie/minion damage/minion life/multi-strike (the MS could be added fire, melee splash, or just about anything else...is added fire really better than MS here?)

raise spectre/LMP/minion life

skeletons/minion life/minion speed

raging spirits/faster casting/increased duration/minion damage

hatred/discipline/clarity/reduced mana

Have you not tried to run hatred as well as discipline/clarity? Right now I'm not running clarity at all, but when I get a little more mana I will be using it. I haven't had too much mana problems, and the added % damage seems really strong.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMBB2MOXBFQEZYV1xcvGmwc3B0UJIso-ilPKhMqmCynLL8vbzrYO-E8jkV-SOdNuU3YVdZWY1crV8lZ81orWpFk52aeaqxr220ZcLtzU3y7fRh_xoCkgseFYIauiECPRpAzkyeboZ2uoqOj8qaspwinK6h9qsS0DLiTu9a_l8AawFTBxcHzyT3MvNDQ0_vXhtkL2RPa3eL35CLmgeq66-7sOOyK8XbyHvfB99f56PqA-tI=

Hi, using this build for my second character, really enjoying it so far, thanks for the guide!

Halfway through act 2 cruel, no problems with anything except corrupted bosses with strong aoe/minions of their own. Curse you Simi! Stupid monkey.

One thing to note tho - heavy AOE will be somewhat of an issue when it comes to this build,so be careful,other than that,lvl 57 running with soul mantle - no issues so far,great dps and mobility as long as you don't get too cocky - that's when you die^^