[1.1.x] Cursed General (Tri Totem Raging Spirit / Summoner)

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Zinsho wrote:

On the surface yes. However by not investing in Totem nodes you can gain additional cast speed nodes that allow for more Spirits, countering this difference.

/agreed

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MaddBomber83 wrote:

I've had a look through your guide and will have to ponder it some more. One thing to note, up to the cap of 50 Raging Spirits, a Tri Totem does 105% of the damage that a self casting RS build does.

After that point you are correct in saying the self casting RS build becomes more effective (as each RS is worth much more when self cast as compared to totem).

I'm not sure where you get your 105% damage. I think a more intuitive way to put it is the following : 50 Raging Spirits from a totem is the equivalent of 25 Raging Spirits from a Caster. Why, because RS spirits from totem deal 50% less damage (or half damage).

Now the question is the following. Which of the 2 builds manage to put those Spirit out the fastest.

My Witch is able to cast a raging spirit every 0.3 second. Lets assume a totem can cast a Raging Spirit every 0.45 second (because of the 30% slower casting time for totem and also because totem builds don't seem to have as much available passives to spend in faster casting)

If the totem cast a spirit every 0.45, that also mean that casting the totem itself will take 0.56 second.

So, lets look at the number of RS in each build every 0.3 second :


0.3 sec : Self-Cast (1) / 0 Totem (0)
0.6 sec : Self-Cast (2) / 1 Totem (0)
0.9 sec : Self-Cast (3) / 1 Totem (1)
1.2 sec : Self-Cast (4) / 2 Totems (1)
1.5 sec : Self-Cast (5) / 2 Totems (2)
1.8 sec : Self-Cast (6) / 3 Totems (4)
2.1 sec : Self-Cast (7) / 3 totems (5)
2.4 sec : Self-Cast (8) / 3 totems (7)
2.7 sec : Self-Cast (9) / 3 totems (9)
3.0 sec : Self-Cast (10) / 3 totems (11)
3.3 sec : Self-Cast (11) / 3 totems (13)
3.6 sec : Self-Cast (12) / 3 totems (15)
3.9 sec : Self-Cast (13) / 3 totems (17)
4.2 sec : Self-Cast (14) / 3 totems (19)
4.5 sec : Self-Cast (15) / 3 totems (21)
4.8 sec : Self-Cast (16) / 3 totems (23)
5.1 sec : Self-Cast (17) / 3 totems (25)
5.4 sec : Self-Cast (18) / 3 totems (27)
5.7 sec : Self-Cast (19) / 3 totems (29)
6.0 sec : Self-Cast (20) / 3 totems (31)
6.3 sec : Self-Cast (21) / 3 totems (33)
6.6 sec : Self-Cast (22) / 3 totems (35)
6.9 sec : Self-Cast (23) / 3 totems (37)
7.2 sec : Self-Cast (24) / 3 totems (39)
7.5 sec : Self-Cast (25) / 3 totems (41)
7.8 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (43)
8.1 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (45)
8.3 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (47)
8.6 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (49)
8.9 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (50)
9.2 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (50)

So, after 1.2 second, the self-cast build has 4 RS out, the totem build has 2 totems out but only 1 RS out. After 2.7 seconds, both builds have 9 RS out, but the totem RS deal 50% less damage, so its still not even. After 7.8 second, self cast build has reach his max amount of RS : 26. Meanwhile, the totem build has 43 RS out. If those 43 RS deal 50% less damage than self-cast RS, its still not even in term of dps. If the self-cast RS deal 1 dps each (26), the Totem-cast RS should deal 0.5 damage each or 21.5. What does it mean ? If the self-cast build manage to summon more than 25 RS, the totem build will never be able to reach the same dps.

However, in term of mana regen, the self-cast build will be much more demanding than the totem build though. Also, strategically, its easier to let your totems summon the minions than to cast it yourself. Its probably not realist to assume that a self-casting build will be able to stand still and cast for a full 7.8 seconds.

105% comes from the calculation of: 50% less damage, 30% less frequently, *3 totems.

So a base of 100 damage with 1 cast per second = 50 damage, 0.7 CPS * 3

150 * 0.7 = 105 damage.

As long as max spirits is <50, 3 totems (assuming identical trees) = 5% more damage than self-casting.

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Zinsho wrote:

105% comes from the calculation of: 50% less damage, 30% less frequently, *3 totems.

So a base of 100 damage with 1 cast per second = 50 damage, 0.7 CPS * 3

150 * 0.7 = 105 damage.

As long as max spirits is <50, 3 totems (assuming identical trees) = 5% more damage than self-casting.

But you said it yourself : 50 Totemized Spirits = Same damage as 25 Self-Cast spirits.

So, if you manage to get more than 25 self-cast spirits, they will deal more dps than 50 Spirits from totems.

In addition, assuming non-stop casting, getting 25 spirits out will be faster than getting 50 spirit out from 3 totems.

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Velkor wrote:

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Zinsho wrote:

105% comes from the calculation of: 50% less damage, 30% less frequently, *3 totems.

So a base of 100 damage with 1 cast per second = 50 damage, 0.7 CPS * 3

150 * 0.7 = 105 damage.

As long as max spirits is <50, 3 totems (assuming identical trees) = 5% more damage than self-casting.

But you said it yourself : 50 Totemized Spirits = Same damage as 25 Self-Cast spirits.

So, if you manage to get more than 25 self-cast spirits, they will deal more dps than 50 Spirits from totems.

In addition, assuming non-stop casting, getting 25 spirits out will be faster than getting 50 spirit out from 3 totems.

I have to ask what you are trying to argue here, beyond restating what has been stated.

In a RS Totem Build that can maintain 50 or less RS, you will do 5% more damage than the same build that is self casting RS.

Wording it your way, a Self Cast RS Build that can maintain more than 26 raging spirits (26.25 is when they are equal) will do more damage than the same build using Totems.



Until that limit (50 totem vs 26 self cast), the difference between the two comes down to the style/utility/cost of the builds.

A Totem Build gains the ability to focus fire, use totems as collidable strategic use, and the ability to continue moving without sacrificing DPS.

It costs start up time (as you said, you must place totems first) and you must use Warding potions to offset the curse cost. The build itself has an investment of points to gain Totem Mastery. Totems them self can have survivability issues that a player may not.

The style of play is also different. A totem build the player is almost entirely focused on placement / positioning / situational awareness. A self cast build is played mostly like any other spell casting class.


I don't want this to dissolve into a thread where the focus is on self cast vs totem raging spirits anymore than other threads that discuss melee vs ranged damage. The playstyles are fundamentally different; not that they can't learn things from each other.

Instead this thread's focus is on the tweaking / optimizing of the Totem/Minion play style.

When it comes to the scion increased skill duration nodes...how are they like using 2 increased duration gems when my lvl 15 gem gives like 60%? You mean its almost like having an extra gem? Either way, I rolled witch so it seems unlikely that I can ever get there.

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MaddBomber83 wrote:

In a RS Totem Build that can maintain 50 or less RS, you will do 5% more damage than the same build that is self casting RS.

Wording it your way, a Self Cast RS Build that can maintain more than 26 raging spirits (26.25 is when they are equal) will do more damage than the same build using Totems.

Sorry, the reason why I replied to Zinsho is because I find his statement (and yours) misleading.

You insist on saying that a RS Totem build that can maintain 50 or less RS will do 5% more damage than a self-casting RS, while it's wrong.

Players reading that statement will think that there's no point in building a self-casting RS summoner. The truth is : a RS totem build will only do more damage if it can manage to produce more than twice as many RS than a self-casting RS summoner. And I showed in my previous post that, unless the fight last for a very long time (9 seconds or more), a RS totem summoner will summon less than twice the amount of RS than a self-casting summoner.

Having said that, there are other good reasons to run a totem RS character. I never said otherwise. I even said that the self-casting build comes with its fair share of issues, including very high mana regen requirements. Most importantly, the playstyle of both types of RS summoners are very different and this, alone, is a good enough reason to play one or another.

However, if players think that a totem RS summoner will deal 5% more damage than a self-casting one (which is wrong), they'll never even consider not using totems. The truth is, if dps is your priority, you should not run a RS totem summoner but a Self-Casting one.

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bubblehulk wrote:

When it comes to the scion increased skill duration nodes...how are they like using 2 increased duration gems when my lvl 15 gem gives like 60%? You mean its almost like having an extra gem? Either way, I rolled witch so it seems unlikely that I can ever get there.

I believe that is what he is saying.

I'm playing around with a few skill point distributions for the witch and scion. It is a tough sacrifice to make though.

Right now (independent of gear / other auras) we have 24 RSs doing total of 24k DPS. This is a nice number and I'm not sure that more makes a better character depending on the sacrifice.

That 45% increased duration from the Scion Nodes brings us from 164% duration to 209%; giving us 30.5 RSs and increases our DPS to 30.5k.

That 27% increase in DPS costs us 10ish passive skill points.

Witch vs Scion on this is rather mute.
- Witch will spend 11 points to get this buff.
- We would also get 6% Casting / Movement Speed; 50% more evasion; 40 more dex.

- Scion will spend 9 points to get this buff (Scion also was down 1 point total from Witch).
- They would also get 28% to all resists; 24% Evasion/Armor; 10 dex and 10% Melee Physical.

Where do we take the points from? Using the level 75 build as the point of discussion...
- Death Attunement / Minion Instability would give enough points, but the DPS increase from those two regions is more than what we would get from the Scion Nodes and also sacrifices minion endurance.
- We can drop our Aura Nodes, but that is a wash when solo (your minions get ~7k DPS from a single damage aura, and if they are out of range...).
- The last area is to look at dropping Chaos Inoculation / Energy Shield nodes and going life instead. I still have more research on life builds to see if that is a viable alternative.




At this time, I won't be modifying the builds to take advantage of the Scion Duration nodes. The sacrifices to the overall build just don't justify the DPS increase / gear flexibility.

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Velkor wrote:

Sorry, the reason why I replied to Zinsho is because I find his statement (and yours) misleading.

Its not misleading at all. Lets look at a fight that lasts 8 seconds and see what happens:

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1.8 sec : Self-Cast (6) / 3 Totems (4)
7.8 sec : Self-Cast (26) / 3 totems (43)

For the first 2 seconds of the fight, both casters are standing still spamming something (Totem vs Raging Spirit).

For the next 6 seconds the totem caster is done, they can now cast other spells (for instance, they can start self casting raging spirits; or curses; or skeletons; or whatever else they would like.

At the 8 second point what are they doing? The self caster has to continue casting RS to maintain their DPS; for the next minute the totem user does not.


Lets make a safe assumption that the totem user swaps to casting skeletons after laying down the totems.

At the 8 second point, the totem user has 12 Skeletons, 43 raging spirits, and can continue to move and do other things. The self caster is still standing there, spamming a single skill. Those 12 skeletons are putting out 9k DPS alive or doing 2k AoE DPS if they are dieing.


You can't really compare a self caster, standing still for 8 seconds and then remaining still for as long as they can to do DPS to a totem user who only needs 2 seconds and then can do whatever they like.

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Velkor wrote:

However, if players think that a totem RS summoner will deal 5% more damage than a self-casting one (which is wrong), they'll never even consider not using totems. The truth is, if dps is your priority, you should not run a RS totem summoner but a Self-Casting one.

The play styles are fundamentally different. A build is not only about top DPS. It is about the full play experience, balance of DPS vs Defense.

If your style of play is to stand still spamming a single spell and having to continue to spam that spell to maintain your dps, then go self casting RS.

If you want to move and focus more on placement / battle flow then go totem.

If your priority is truly DPS then I'm sure there is another build out there that does far more DPS than any RS build.

What RS (self cast and totem) offers is fire and forget / auto targeting. THAT is the reason people consider using RS (other than flaming skulls are cool).