A Veteran's Proposal for a Self Found League - Poll Included!

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

The sad truth is GGG could be capitalizing on two markets not just the "niche" product they intended it to be. I wouldn't put the SFL idea to rest, they were firm on many other aspects of the game and then adjusted it to cater to a different crowd.

Personally I am indifferent, they do whatever the fuck they want anyways.

This debate has, since its conception, reminded me of the FFA only vs optional Instanced debate of ye olden times.

While in no way substantial, my response is nonetheless "Look how that turned out; game is not dead, as one might have predicted."

"

CanHasPants wrote:

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

The sad truth is GGG could be capitalizing on two markets not just the "niche" product they intended it to be. I wouldn't put the SFL idea to rest, they were firm on many other aspects of the game and then adjusted it to cater to a different crowd.

Personally I am indifferent, they do whatever the fuck they want anyways.

This debate has, since its conception, reminded me of the FFA only vs optional Instanced debate of ye olden times.

While in no way substantial, my response is nonetheless "Look how that turned out; game is not dead, as one might have predicted."

They don't "need" to capitalize on two markets, they designed the product to be niche to begin with. Might as well make a moba out of path of exile and go the cash money route if they wanted to "please everyone."

Literally if anything they'll sell a single player offline version of the game were you can mod/hack it all you want, there is literally no point in redesigning the entire game and re-balancing it constantly for an online self found league that tracked were you can still RMT/cheat your way to the top anyway.

Actually, I've always thought a MOBA-like team pve/pvp hybrid mode would be very fitting. It would be quite awesome actually.

Creeps could include anything, spawned via some interactive, in-instance resource consuming mechanic that allows players to decide which creeps would best counter the opposing party and defend their....

Kudukus! Not towers, but super buffed spell totems would guard the paths to each team's base.

It's all right there, and would be so much more fun than LoL in my opinion.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Kudukus! Not towers, but super buffed spell totems would guard the paths to each team's base.

Keep at it team, one kuduku left and all their base is belong to us! And watch for Ondar and Maligaro, they ganked us twice already, Kaom is not a problem if our Hyrri traps him and Piety and Doedre nuke his ass! Keep focused and save your vaal skills for the very end! Chaarge!

Yeah, it has been talked about before, there's plenty of material to make one, either a full a spinoff or just a game mode. I'm afraid it would have to be premade builds, MOBAs are all about tight balance, if we could use our existing chars everything goes out of the window, gear at vendors in camps could still be random and monsters could also drop some, FFA, of course :)

It could be interesting for a breather, we could wager orbs on matches in addition to regular prizes so it would be somewhat profitable too. And if you really think about it, there is no ARPG/MOBA hybrid out there, might be it would marry well and even carve a niche.

That's why I suggested MOBA-like; the imbalances of personal crafted builds are what would make it awesome and befitting of Path of Exile, rather than some Path of LoL spin off.

"

morbo wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Because leagues cost money, because leagues cost developer time.

All I'm hearing is excuses. The truth is PoE is designed as a tradecore game from the ground up. GGG will do everything to avoid a SFL, even a test one, which could shatter this ideology of 'trading uber alles' and find out that people vastly prefer rewarding H&S & crafting gameplay, over sitting in tradechat.

The truth is that crafting is rewarding already as much as it can be. Increasing results of crafts will only give the player a one time only experience of great results. Once players have crafted stuff with new better risk/reward ratio and they own this, it will be really difficult to craft anything better than this existing stuff and ppl start crying about crafting again. This is the state where we are in right now.

Please god grow some intelligence for all of us. I would even give some of my own to spread it more evenly around so I get less headache from reading bullshit from people that can't overview stuff they are talking about.



NOTE: Increased crafting is a one time only effect always. After that the new easy to get craftings are the new standard for measuring future crafts. Crafting anything extraordinary will be as hard as it is now (thats the simple mechanic of all this which and will never change).


Only thing that would change is that content would get too easy. So GGG would have to make monsters/maps more difficult if everbody could craft gg stuff easily in order to achieve having a game that they wanted to create and not some brainless D3 casual stuff.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

The sad truth is GGG could be capitalizing on two markets not just the "niche" product they intended it to be. I wouldn't put the SFL idea to rest, they were firm on many other aspects of the game and then adjusted it to cater to a different crowd.

Personally I am indifferent, they do whatever the fuck they want anyways.

This debate has, since its conception, reminded me of the FFA only vs optional Instanced debate of ye olden times.

While in no way substantial, my response is nonetheless "Look how that turned out; game is not dead, as one might have predicted."

Me too.

On the one hand, I still feel we could have done the loot tension thing better, as in: one unified system which creates a risk/reward system for "ninja" behavior, instead of a dialogue box which splits the community and removes the tension entirely. On the same note, I feel we can do the self-found thing better, as in: one unified system which creates more balanced between self-found and trade, instead of a league selection screen which splits the community and removes the tension entirely.

On the other hand, although I think the game would probably be worse with a self-found league, I want to make it clear that it wouldn't be an apocalypse. I mean, look at how underplayed Hardcore league is now; it's unfortunate, it's even kind of sad, it's something I hope can be fixed, but it's by no means doomsday — the game isn't ruined because permanent Hardcore is a ghost town. That kind of situation befalling another league (or leagues) — in exchange for what could be near-zero benefit — is honestly about the worst-case scenario of all this SFL stuff. I'd prefer to avoid it, but I honestly can't say a plan which causes such a drawback deliberately, as an understood cost, to be completely insane. Suboptimal, yes; bad for the game, maybe; insane, no.

"

LSN wrote:

"

morbo wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Because leagues cost money, because leagues cost developer time.

All I'm hearing is excuses. The truth is PoE is designed as a tradecore game from the ground up. GGG will do everything to avoid a SFL, even a test one, which could shatter this ideology of 'trading uber alles' and find out that people vastly prefer rewarding H&S & crafting gameplay, over sitting in tradechat.

The truth is that crafting is rewarding already as much as it can be. Increasing results of crafts will only give the player a one time only experience of great results. Once players have crafted stuff with new better risk/reward ratio and they own this, it will be really difficult to craft anything better than this existing stuff and ppl start crying about crafting again. This is the state where we are in right now.

Please god grow some intelligence for all of us. I would even give some of my own to spread it more evenly around so I get less headache from reading bullshit from people that can't overview stuff they are talking about.



NOTE: Increased crafting is a one time only effect always. After that the new easy to get craftings are the new standard for measuring future crafts. Crafting anything extraordinary will be as hard as it is now (thats the simple mechanic of all this which and will never change).


Only thing that would change is that content would get too easy. So GGG would have to make monsters/maps more difficult if everbody could craft gg stuff easily in order to achieve having a game that they wanted to create and not some brainless D3 casual stuff.

LSN gets it. Any crafting gambling change which is usable by those at the top is going to be used primarily by those at the top, which makes the efforts by those below meager in comparison. This process is all but inevitable.

One thing people need to really understand is that trading has absolutely nothing to do with this. It is possible, even under full SFL restrictions, to have your not-at-the-top self "trade" with your future at-the-top self; all you need to do is hoard your orbs until you are. Removing trading will not cause a significant shift of "crafting" from the very highest ilvl items to lower ilvl items.

Where I disagree with LSN is the idea that it is completely inevitable. I believe it is possible to create changes in crafting which specifically target lower-level items, and specifically ignore or nerf crafting of higher-level items. The key word here is "specifically:" if the change effects ilvl 77 items the same way it effects ilvl 63 ones, then there's absolutely no possibility of fundamental change to the system.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

That's why I suggested MOBA-like; the imbalances of personal crafted builds are what would make it awesome and befitting of Path of Exile, rather than some Path of LoL spin off.

Yeah, the way PvP is awesome :)

Don't get me wrong, I'd be beyond thrilled if that ever happened but it just can't be done, too many things scale in pretty ridiculous ways and too many things hard-counter others. You just can't have one char on the field cream everyone else on sight, that would be as fun as pocket billiards.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

One thing people need to really understand is that trading has absolutely nothing to do with this. It is possible, even under full SFL restrictions, to have your not-at-the-top self "trade" with your future at-the-top self; all you need to do is hoard your orbs until you are. Removing trading will not cause a significant shift of "crafting" from the very highest ilvl items to lower ilvl items.

Of course not, that would be impossible with current itemization, but with enough worthwhile recipes, why not, people use rustic sash recipe. Besides, it's only natural you want to save the 'good stuff' for later, most games work like that, but you'd be able to toss an alch at nice base items with no regrets.

But what it would do is ensure everybody crafts at some point, instead of '1% of top players' it would be '100% of players at some time or another'. We can be practically certain to get a high enough level base item to try our luck on, but can we be just as sure we'll ever be at a point where crafting will be a preferable item acquisition method to trading? Not so much.

I have an immodest proposal. I'm not sure where it came from; I think perhaps Scrotie mentioning the word "insane."

What if GGG just up and removed every single orb from the game, and removed all potential for future orb drops? That's not to be taken as "we should do this!" just a proposal to consider.

Would that improve or worsen the game? In what ways? What systems would be weakened by the removal? What could be done to reinforce those systems post hoc? Would those systems be improved by those reinforcements, in light of the removal of orbs?

As I said, just something to ponder. I think it may lead to some interesting conclusions, if given honest consideration.

@raics: It can be done. There will be a journey to discovery, but the meta will sort itself. That one player creaming everything by him/herself won't last for long; people will see what they're doing and imitate or counter them. A PoE MOBA-like meta will emerge, with trendy strategies, and trending counter-strategies. It is, ultimately no different than scheduling a rotation of pre-made characters, except that would preclude the "journey to discovery," where PoE could not only emphasize it, it could outright sell it as a feature.

Edited after raics' reply: I'm out of time now, but I think we may have some good discussion on this if we move it to another thread, and not derail Mr P's any further ^-^

"

CanHasPants wrote:

@raics: It can be done. There will be a journey to discovery, but the meta will sort itself. That one player creaming everything by him/herself won't last for long; people will see what they're doing and imitate or counter them. A PoE MOBA-like meta will emerge, with trendy strategies, and trending counter-strategies. It is, ultimately no different than scheduling a rotation of pre-made characters, except that would preclude the "journey to discovery," where PoE could not only emphasize it, it could outright sell it as a feature.

Nah, man, can't see it, balance in MOBAs is an awfully fragile thing, hell, people often leave the game even when one player outlevels others by a high enough margin, even though it's still possible to catch up and turn the game around. Here, they'd leave on sight if they spot something they can't handle on the other side, yeah, people are like that nowadays, it's fine for PvP, you might pull off a lucky punch or two and it's only a couple of rounds, but if you got a prolonged objective they wouldn't be as tolerant.

Besides, it's all well and good to play rock paper scissors on players but if you got a guy on the field that can destroy a kuduku in two hits you got a serious problem. Players can probably adapt up to an extent but a kuduku is a kuduku, static elements don't really play well with dynamic... and kuduku is as static as can be :).