Open Letter to Qarl, regarding topics discussed in RMT thread
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Nephalim wrote:
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Like the infinite ChargeBeam, a hoarded orb is mere potential, and no actuality; thus, it must be fired at some point to justify its existence.
Potential behind a layer of rng that will likely cause many to rq because they couldn't fuse with 2500 fusings or create a god tier item with 50 exalts worth of currency. I think that was what eternals were for and look how that turned out.
The very orb intended to breathe life into crafting was ultimately what killed crafting soundly when you could simply swap x sum of orbs into a guaranteed bis item without any rng layer. This would be equivalent with chargebeam being charged to an optimal point where it could be released and instantly clear the entire level.
Pretty much. There has always been a huge preoccupation with the number of orbs to reliably achieve a particular objective in this game; it seems it has rarely been about "I've got a valid item base, and I'm feeling lucky," and instead almost exclusively about "how long do I have to keep holding this charge button?" This is a behavior pattern explained by the theory that orbs are continuously gaining value, pretty much all the time.
I'm pretty sure that if Qarl looks at his data about orb use in the light I've presented it in this thread, he'd find matching conclusions. And, hell, if he doesn't, I'd surely like to know. After all, I entered this thread not really intending it to turn out this way; I just started thinking, and what you see is what I got. In a way it's been an epiphany for me.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
One distinction I wish Qarl had made in his replies is that between Whetstones/Scraps/Jewelers/Fusings and Chaos/Exalts. "Orbs" are never homogeneous in their metagame position. Of course that's in part due to the established parlance, but the distinction exists just the same.
It means relatively little to follow up with something like "we're happy with orb usage -- in part due to the Fusing change" when it's clear Veta's original post is engaged with those orbs that are most hoarded for and used as currency because they are perceived to produce the least expected value per consumption, that are Chaos and Exalts.
I'd also be interested to know about what he thinks about low-level usage of those two orb types. GGG must have considered Scrotie's dust idea by now. It took two months for GGG to notice, consider, and implement the Eternal Orb idea, one that arguably ended up doing more harm than good. I'm sure they could have done the same for the dust idea as well, but didn't. That suggestion was really one of the best that I have seen here and there's been nary an official indication of whether it's even been read.
Have you made a cool build using The Coming Calamity? Let me know!
Last edited by ephetat#3689 on Feb 27, 2014, 4:53:56 AM
Do you believe hoarding and never using currency is the correct choice? If so, why?
Hoarding orbs is not a choice. It's a consequence of really bad "crafting", designed as a total gamble.
I have several stashes of potentially good gear that could be upgraded to usable status, with either exalting or fusing. Why I don't do it? Because I know its a total waste. Its just better to hoard things until you get a GG drop that will justify all the wasteful "crafting". That GG drop might never come.
Hoarding is a natural instinct when faced with uncertainty (=gambling). You cant circumvent natural instincts.
(not to mention that after wasting ~600 fuse on one item, to get a meagre five link, I don't intend to play again this unrewarding game for a long time, if ever.. -_-)
Fix your absolutely retarded "crafting" system, and you wont have problems with people (not) using orbs.
When night falls
She cloaks the world
In impenetrable darkness
Last edited by morbo#1824 on Feb 27, 2014, 4:11:43 AM
I actually also like the idea of 1 time tradeable currency.
So that I can transfer my 'wealth' to a mule account, but not back? Some even prefer to have a different account for trading in general, all stuff useless bound to this? 'Nice' suggestion, but IMHO: failed by concept.
invited by timer @ 10.12.2011
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deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu
Specifically, when their progress is markedly slow and their orbs could be used to speed their progression.
No matter how 'slow' I progress, before you come close to the endgame (which demands you some upgrades) there will be a lot of situations where its better to wait for the next item to drop, instead of investing even 'lower' orbs, as Alchemy etc. It gives a bad smell to spend relative expensive currency just to see an equivalent drop at the next corner...
On the other hand, real crafting is way to expensive for midgame - and the closer one get to the end, the bigger the variety of crap rolls (neccessary, of course). But to even expect any kind of suitable result, you HAVE TO hoard the needed orbs... if we are expected to need hundrets of fusings for a high-link (just as very basic/easy example of random-crafting), why should we use them on a one-by-one base?
invited by timer @ 10.12.2011
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deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu
I would go so far as to say that orbs used on crafting have negative value.
In a vast majority of cases you're going to make your item worse, even if only by lost potential of an affix and/or a debt in currency needed to put it back to where it was.
I think that's the main thing, the net effect of a single piece of currency is negative. Sure, over a large period of time you might have one particular instance where it's positive and turns out better than what you started with, but I don't think that's how we see this instinctively.
If you use 50 orbs to achieve a certain result that means you used 49 fusings with a result you weren't happy with, a negative result. And one single fusing with a positive effect, averaging out to a net negative effect.
In the case of jeweller's and fusings I think it may well be worth looking at to find some way of allowing the players to use many of them as a single item, so that you're not getting 49 bad results and 1 good result but instead just the single good result. I think that would simply make the act of using said orbs feel a whole lot better, because in the current game you mostly just feel like an idiot for crafting, even if you eventually get the desired result.
My vision for a better PoE: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/863780
I would consider that using them (perhaps that was not clear in my original question.
I could reword it:
Do you believe hoarding and never crafting with, or buying something with that currency, is always the correct choice?
a) using orbs to buy things just lead to another guy hoarding.
a1) we cant prevent people to trade, and we cant prevent to aim for trades to make 'you' rich, and we cant prevent people from trying to accumulate wealth.
b)no - because it makes you (feel) rich, but its a useless impression. (it may be a nice one, but its nothing worth without use)
b1) you cant hoard what you dont have, so from my actual view: not (at all) without 'nice' profit from trades.
invited by timer @ 10.12.2011
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deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu
No matter how 'slow' I progress, before you come close to the endgame (which demands you some upgrades) there will be a lot of situations where its better to wait for the next item to drop, instead of investing even 'lower' orbs, as Alchemy etc. It gives a bad smell to spend relative expensive currency just to see an equivalent drop at the next corner...
A possible solution to mid-level crafting I have seen working well in other online games is component tiering. So, any, for instance, chaos orb that dropped would have a chance to be 'lesser', 'regular' or 'greater', first one being useable on items below level 30, second one 30-60 and third one on items over 60. Of course, areas up to level 30 would be able to drop only lesser orb and areas over 60 would have a lesser/regular/greater drop distribution of 10/20/70 or something.
From my experiences, when you drop crafting materials in that way you will use them, no point in hoarding anything except the highest tier.
About crafting in general, people probably hesitate to do it the most because of fear they will ruin the item as any crafting material we use has a far greater chance to ruin the item than better it. And as I mentioned a couple of times, in this game a lot more factors have to match to make the item a valid upgrade, compared to other games. A good way to solve the problem would probably be to just implement eternal orb into crafting, you place the item in some crafting window or something, spend shit on it and get asked to confirm or abandon the changes, you still lose your orbs but at least you don't ruin your item.
Yes, it's a pretty brutal measure but I fear no less than that will do the trick IF devs want more players to craft in the first place.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
No matter how 'slow' I progress, before you come close to the endgame (which demands you some upgrades) there will be a lot of situations where its better to wait for the next item to drop, instead of investing even 'lower' orbs, as Alchemy etc. It gives a bad smell to spend relative expensive currency just to see an equivalent drop at the next corner...
A possible solution to mid-level crafting I have seen working well in other online games is component tiering. So, any, for instance, chaos orb that dropped would have a chance to be 'lesser', 'regular' or 'greater', first one being useable on items below level 30, second one 30-60 and third one on items over 60. Of course, areas up to level 30 would be able to drop only lesser orb and areas over 60 would have a lesser/regular/greater drop distribution of 10/20/70 or something.
From my experiences, when you drop crafting materials in that way you will use them, no point in hoarding anything except the highest tier.
This suggestion comes up a lot and while it's good intentioned it only serves to compartmentalize the problem. That is, instead of saving to craft at level 70, players will craft at level 29, then 59, etc. Additionally, if we then allow conversion between the orb tiers i.e. 10 mini chaos for 1 big chaos, we are essentially creating a less elegant version of Scrotie's dust suggestion, linked in the OP.
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Feb 27, 2014, 4:50:09 AM
2. I can let some other fool/rich folk blow all his orbs, and buy it.
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I have hoarded orbs and never crafted since.
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So you do use your orbs for buying things then?
I would consider that using them (perhaps that was not clear in my original question.
I could reword it:
Do you believe hoarding and never crafting with, or buying something with that currency, is always the correct choice?
I always read comments like : "Never craft", i read also threads like: "look what i have made".
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EdgeVII wrote:
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CantripN wrote:
Buy. Never "craft"
fix'd bro
never craft anything.
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gump132 wrote:
DON'T USE YOUR CURRENCY FOR CRAFTING!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T DO IT!!!!
Spoiler
I spent 7 chaos when I was lvl 10 on my first char (yes, 7 chaos dropped by the time I hit lvl 10 on my first char). I had no idea they were worth anything and wasted them on "crafting". NEVER CRAFT, EVER. It is ALWAYS better to trade for gear you need. The closest thing I come to crafting is Chrom/Jewl/Fuse if I really don't want to pay for something that is already 4 linked (you will never 5 or 6 link anything unless you spend stupid amounts of currency).
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Finkenstein wrote:
Hi
Been playing this game since closed beta and crafting needs some major love I don't even ''craft'' anymore its better to just save them orbs. The poor player is better off never crafting and saving their orbs to guarantee they get a decent item(after paying the inflated price). The definition of crafting only loosely covers what POE considers crafting to be. POE needs to add new orbs that can be made only through crafting.
Spoiler
POE could increase orb drops but the inflation will only answer in kind thus a player will be rigt back where they started. This game needs further item sinks.
Crafting needs to further combine itself with recipes and rares. The present steps in this direction are infantile but great in the scheme of things,ex: 5 rare same jewellery types gets you a alchemy at vendor,40% quality worth of gems gets you a gcp at vendor, etc..
The next step is to create orbs that allow more specific mods which in turns allows less randomized crafting and more actual crafting through the usage of recipes with consideration to the mods on the items you bring to vendor+ low lvl orbs(transmutaions,augementation, etc..) used.
These specific mod oriented orbs could be further refined through higher lvl orbs to create orbs that would roll higher mods on your items.
This would allow more usage of useless low lvl orbs for end game, provide another item sink and promote the idea of actual crafting,ex: say you randomly rolled a good item you want but don't trust the divine to roll higher mods or you only want to roll certain mods on the item higher, create the orb you need through finding similar modded items,vendor with low lvl orbs to create your specific orb then use the specified orb with divine to create a divine that would work on rolling the one mod you require, or another ex: player wants to add cold damage to weapon so they find cold dam weapons, vendor with low lvl orbs create a orb of cold, upgrade it with higher tier orbs to a orb of chill, blizzard then rolls this orb on their weapon to get (depending on how much they refine the orb) low to high lvl weapon cold mods.The present orbs are a great platform from which this further, more specific crafting system could be implemented.
A player can't always craft with just a hammer they need finishing tools also.
cheers
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downstroy wrote:
To the first poster, I want to share my personal crafting rule tree:
1°) Always try to buy stuff first. If you want to upgrade you gear, as long as you can buy an upgrade for less, DO it
2°) Never craft for more than 1/10th of your total wealth. Immagine the life equivalent: would you play in casino for your annual (monthly) salary?? I guess no, so apply the same rule here.
Spoiler
3°) If you have more money than you can spent (I mean something like 150 exalts+), and a good linked item (less important for 3/4 socket max items) with a high ilvl, then only you can start invest massive amounts of currency (I say currency because it is firstly a currency) into crafting THE perfect gear, which no one has already
4°) If you think crafting will cost you more than 25-30 exalts, then you 'd better just buy a mirror and mirror the best item on the server.
5°) NEVER try to craft the perfect RING/AMU/SHIELD/WEAPON. Because on theses items, there is so many possible mods that the odds of getting a good rolls is almost non-existent. That's also why you see that all top level player usually only gamble on armor, because the list of mods are much more restricted, thus you will much more likely roll something good.
But the important is: do not think crafting as a reliable way to upgrade an item. It is only a gold sink for top-level players. Not for us, mere mortal.
And another comparison to make you understand why the game isn't wrong, but indeed very clever on this topic:
In a casino, you can't bankrupt the bank, except if you have infinite amount of money, is the casino rules wrong? I don't think so, it is meant to be that way by design, it is the same here, you cannot forces the odds to win, given a certain amount of currency, that's why there will never be a: pay X, get what you want, because it would be inevitably flawed by design, leading to massive deflation of high end items.
And compare to other ARPG, in Diablo for exemple you don't have the choice: best gear is only found, you can't (there is not even a small probability) craft it (2 sock manticore eg). So poe gives another option, which has the cost that you have experienced. But don't blame the game for being what it is. It is meant to be that way.
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Destructodave wrote:
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JahIthBer89 wrote:
The self-correcting nature of the economy in this game is something that should really be acknowledged.
People always complain that it's better to "buy" items than to craft them, but they fail to realize that we're using the very same currency to do both.
Spoiler
If you trade off 10 chaos orbs for an item, you're merely trading 10 rare rerolls. Nothing more, nothing less. If, at any point, it becomes more profitable to craft an item than to pay market price for it, the economy will reflect that. Maps skew this pattern a bit because most build have a wide variety of mods that they can or will run, while equippable items are a bit more specific.
Having a hard time explaining what I mean, but the point is that currency items aren't just arbitrarily valuable. The economy in this game is nothing short of genius.
Spoiler
Its never better to use currency. You can alwyas trade for something far better than you can make. Trust me. Thats why I have always wondered, as long as I played this game, why currency is valued so cheaply. A good rare worth wearing is probably what? A couple alchs or chaos? Thats nothing if you try to use it. You are never better off using your currency and it takes a long time to learn that. You can always trade for better, far cheaper.
Crafting with orbs is far more fun, but its just a quick way to waste your resources. Case in point: back in closed beta, before my friend quit, he had amassed a ton of currency, and decided to use it all because he was quitting. Here is the thread:
As you can see, 1500 rolls and he got literally nothing. 1500 rolls. Got like 6 items total that was even worth having. You are never better off using your currency. It does get boring never crafting anything though.
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Narutobieber wrote:
This is why I always tell my friends to never craft in this game unless they love gambling and getting away with nothing.
Spoiler
With 6 exalts you could have easily bought a better shield, instead you gambled without having the gamblers heart to endure gaining nothing.
Let the gamblers gamble, true gamblers do it not for the end but for the journey, if you are crafting and expected something awesome, then you can't blame it on anything but yourself. There is no control over RNG, there is only control over yourself.
Never craft in this game, except if you are some famous streamer with unlimited wealth, who can burn 50 Exalt equiv on a helmet to get 500+ ES on it (Yes, guess who i'm thinking...)
For "normal" ppl, buying good stuff for some exalts is wayyy cheaper than this pure gambling system.
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tackle70 wrote:
IMO you should never craft in this game until you have hundreds of exalts of wealth and nothing to do with it
OP, you shouldn't waste any more currency on that mediocre belt. Just buy something good for 1-5 exalts.
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Nephalim wrote:
You should never craft anything in this game unless by crafting you mean spending an alch on a white item ilvl 76-79.
It will be far more cost effective to simply buy the item you want rather than burning 10 exalts trying to craft something that sells for 6 gcp.
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Kechop wrote:
nice read and thats why i never craft.
the joys of being melee ( i dont need OP stuff lul!) enjoy your 1000es chest.
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Schn1tt3r wrote:
I hear ya OP. That is why I never craft.
Still your statement is true.
Spoiler
Lucky or GTFO because, even though i don't craft, all uniques I get are vine circlet and lvl 0 claw so yeah, can't do shit
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Why don't we have some crafting progression?
The more you farm the more you acquire crafting skills. At least the player would know he is going in the right direction.
Selling logs: /view-thread/782113(very high speed)
Rhys epic times : view-thread/780247
Last edited by Inexium2#1278 on Feb 27, 2014, 4:47:34 AM
