Open Letter to Qarl, regarding topics discussed in RMT thread

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Splift wrote:

The main pro of this system is already in place. Because low level items have a much smaller affix pool they are easier to roll with top values. For example it might take 100 chaos to roll a decent lvl 68 armor whereas with a lvl 30 one you might spend 3, or it would take 1000 alterations to roll a weapon with a top %damage affix while on a low level weapon it might take a dozen.

This is incorrect. Either:
1. the affix pool is indeed much smaller with lower itemlevel items, so much smaller that lower arealevels actually farm better than (or equal to) higher itemlevels. At this point, risk-reward has been turned on its head, and although the orb situation is kinda fixed, an even more important mechanic has been turned to shit.
2. the affix pool is smaller, but it's not a big enough difference, and farming the higher itemlevel is more productive than farming the lower itemlevel — as it rightfully should be. However, the orb system piggybacks on this, making it so using the currency on the higher itemlevel item is superior to use on the lower.

Without a fundamental change to the currency system, it's a game of Lights Out which you can't win.

1: farming a lower level area for the best weapon that can possibly drop in that area is easier than farming a higher level area for the best that can drop in that area. Its not backwards because the perfect low level item is shit in the endgame, its called decreasing returns, the higher in tier you get the harder/rarer it gets.

2: this is more because you simply don't need to craft at lower levels, random junk works fine (especially in softcore). Its better to save it for when you actually need it.

Even in the "dust" system people would rather save the 1 exalted dust they could use on a low level item towards a higher level one they would need 10 for. You end up in the exact same place in the end, its like saying the item no longer costs one dollar, now its 100 cents.

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The main pro of this system is already in place. Because low level items have a much smaller affix pool they are easier to roll with top values. For example it might take 100 chaos to roll a decent lvl 68 armor whereas with a lvl 30 one you might spend 3, or it would take 1000 alterations to roll a weapon with a top %damage affix while on a low level weapon it might take a dozen.

The reason why people don't use them on low level stuff is because they simply don't need to usually (in softcore especially).

Right, but that's not what factors into the decision. See OP for more exposition, specifically dissuasion (2) and exception (1). The fundamental factor here is value proposition, what is worth more to me - using my orb now or hoarding it. So while the less diluted affix pool of lower level items does make this a more enticing proposition in terms of relative short term progression pace - that's all it does, and to be honest its arguable it does that when we consider orb drop rates decrease as we progress. It doesn't make it a better value proposition over the long term. The long term consideration is what we call future value. This attitude to resource efficiency is a fundamental tenet of personal finance and it's not surprising to me players operate under such proprieties given their intuitive nature.

The goal of the OP, then, was to bring attention to this value disparity and a means of mitigating it, through mechanics that increase the future value of depreciating items. In other words, to facilitate meaningful (difficult) choice.

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Veta321 wrote:

Right, but that's not what factors into the decision. See OP for more exposition.

I never said anything contrary to that. Was mainly saying that people would still see no reason to craft under this dust system. There is no reason to craft on low level junk even if it was 100 times cheaper(unless you are in races/early HC).

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Qarl wrote:

So you do use your orbs for buying things then?

I would consider that using them (perhaps that was not clear in my original question.

I could reword it:

Do you believe hoarding and never crafting with, or buying something with that currency, is always the correct choice?

I will answer as best I can;

I am not really keen to buy from others. That should be said first. I'd much prefer to make things/find things on my own, so they end up being hoarded as a result of me never crafting, and not really trading. I will trade if there is something I really, really want, but those occasions are very rare. I leave trade chat off for almost every minute of in-game time.

Of course you can't say yes to your question, because that renders orbs effectively useless;

You either craft with them, or buy with them. They have no other purpose, so just hoarding them for the sake of hoarding cannot be the correct choice. It seems almost a fixed question to be honest. I think hoarding is more the net result of two things;

1. The crafting is weighed extremely high outside basic functions towards failure.
2. The player cost of actual desirable items is too high.

These two factors lead to stale orbs sitting in stash. If I craft, I just lose orbs. To afford an item I actually want, I would need to fill 10 stash tabs. This sounds very 'whiny' but I don't want it to. I immensely enjoy the game, I farm with a RL friend every day or other.

Here is exactly how I use my orbs;

I use the orbs for basic functions. You have to. I don't see these times as a 'choice' of using orbs, it's a necessity. This doesn't mean using an alchemy to make a rare, that's not a necessity. More just sockets and color. Link to at least four, done. Never use alchemy/chaos outside of maps. Never use any orb of higher tier for absolutely anything, except gem cutters for level 20 gems. Alterations to make into higher orbs, to keep jewelers/chromatic/fuse up for basic function ONLY, more and you only lose them. Transmutes are for selling to the vendor for more scrolls.



In light of this thread tonight, I decided to try and use a few chaos orbs to roll a 'hubris circlet'.

I'd gotten 16 thus far since we've been put in Standard from Domination.
I now have 1 left of those 16, and sold the helm to the vendor.

This is of course small scale, people would say 15 chaos is nothing, and it is to a long time player, I don't mind losing the orbs at all, but each time I think of what I could have gotten for those orbs otherwise, as they are now just gone, even for their medium value.

I could have gotten 3200 wisdom scrolls for them even. Never use orbs.

Finally, I think the hoarding comes in more as you progress, and a hoarder mentality comes a bit too;

For example, say I want to buy an upgrade, that upgrade at a higher level is now several very high-tier orbs. Well, those orbs took me all this time to get, and I'm not keen to give them up at this point. My character is 'good enough' and this trader wants all my best orbs for one item, so I end up just keeping them and not trading or crafting, and thus hoarding. "

"Yes, your legacy Koams (or whatever item) is a massive upgrade. No, I'm not giving you 300 exalted for it. No, I'm not going to spend 5000 chance orbs trying to luck out and make one either."

"Yes, your 6L armor of 'game winning' is an upgrade. No, I'm not going to trade you my best items for it, nor the 50 exalted you want. I have 50 exalted, but they took forever to get. No, I'm not going to try and make it. I wouldn't have the orbs to buy it if I wanted but won't, if I did."

I'll just let them sit there and rot. That's what I'll do ha.

Qarl:

'using' orbs == 'crafting' (as is - using them for their implicit purpose)
'hoarding' orbs == accumulating wealth to trade and trading. most hoarders dont play the game at all
'keeping' orbs == having a stock ready, applies mostly to whetstones/scraps/baubles etc utility stuff

i do not think that there is a 4th way (except regret orbs that are by design used in bulks)

while there are many orb types in this game only few matters:

chaos orbs
exalts
et

and these are 'used' by rmters or very rich because what they give compared to how rare these are is a bad business to 'use' them

exalts is a gamble business that has a way better chance to succeed when coupled with another uber-rare eternal. again - play for the rich

how do you get rich? by trading/scamming or using real dullurs or yuros. playing the game is not on that list

your design invites RMT, your actions (or no-actions) make them safe to RMT. funny that most of top ladder players sell their stuff/buy their stuff for real money and treat your game as a income source and you do nothing to clear that yard

yet you retroactively removed season racers that DID NOT BREAK ANY RULE! that found a clever way to score points

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sidtherat wrote:

your design invites RMT

Ironically, this is true. But not at all in the way you meant it.

The main thing that draws RMT to a game is: players like the game. Some of these players have money and loose ethics. It's really that simple.

So if you really want to get rid of RMT, you have two choices: either get serious about investigation and enforcement specifically aimed at RMT, or drive away some of your playerbase by making the game worse. Remember, if you fiddle with mechanics and the results improve the game for legit players, congratulations, you've just invited more RMT. Both methods of RMT reduction are effective, but as a legit player, I'd like it if GGG's design continued to invite me.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

your design invites RMT

Ironically, this is true. But not at all in the way you meant it.

The main thing that draws RMT to a game is: players like the game. Some of these players have money and loose ethics. It's really that simple.

So if you really want to get rid of RMT, you have two choices: either get serious about investigation and enforcement specifically aimed at RMT, or drive away some of your playerbase by making the game worse. Remember, if you fiddle with mechanics and the results improve the game for legit players, congratulations, you've just invited more RMT. Both methods of RMT reduction are effective, but as a legit player, I'd like it if GGG's design continued to invite me.

To add to this point.

Fighting rmt is like a money fight, you are throwing money at a problem to make someone else lose money. Its a never ending money fight because even if they make one completely give up next week another will pop up simply because there is a demand to be filled and a profit to potentially be made.

Also you have to wonder if the profit they gain by fighting RMT would cover the costs and I would guess that is a big NO because at the end of the day money talks and every single company decides to either give up or eases off and only shoot the big easy to hit fish.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

your design invites RMT

Ironically, this is true. But not at all in the way you meant it.

The main thing that draws RMT to a game is: players like the game. Some of these players have money and loose ethics. It's really that simple.

So if you really want to get rid of RMT, you have two choices: either get serious about investigation and enforcement specifically aimed at RMT, or drive away some of your playerbase by making the game worse. Remember, if you fiddle with mechanics and the results improve the game for legit players, congratulations, you've just invited more RMT. Both methods of RMT reduction are effective, but as a legit player, I'd like it if GGG's design continued to invite me.

legacy items - say hi!
drops-once-in-a-lifetime items - say hi!
bad drops and gambling - say hi!

if these 3 went away game surely would not turn to worse

i have a lot of playtime and i havent had BoR drop once, had one eternal and my best drop is Kongor maul

with this expected result it is wise to simply make a shortcut - and people are doing it. because game is fun - once you get to it. but you need to bruteforce RNG before that - it seems that the best way to do it is with RMT, not with playing the actual game

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Qarl wrote:

So you do use your orbs for buying things then?

I would consider that using them (perhaps that was not clear in my original question.

I could reword it:

Do you believe hoarding and never crafting with, or buying something with that currency, is always the correct choice?

I'm just going to pretend I was asked the question, because I think it's a nice chance to expand on my feelings about the viability of crafting, in regards to furthering character progression.

As a newer player (mid-domination) I've regularly used jewelers and fusings for crafting, and that's been a terrible mistake.

I'll give a very specific example: I wanted to build around the Skullhead secutor helm, and this required a 4s/4l secutor helm, as well as additional specific equipment. The total cost of jewelers and fusing spent doing this ran me about 8c - 35-40 jewelers to 4s it, and several fusings to link it.

Not horrible, but I'm not a wealthy player, and that bad luck ate into the currency I had set aside for the rest of the build. Hoarding and investing a bit more in a properly linked Skullhead likely would have been the smarter choice. It simply feels bad to waste a sizable chunk of currency, whatever that is to a player, on crafting.

Conversely, I actually had the delight of finding a 5l chest recently. I alch'd it, it had garbage rolls, I chaos'd it (first chaos ever used), and now it's got some really excellent stats that probably make it worth several exalts. Using orbs on this chest would be an excellent use of crafting for a few reasons - namely, the 5l gives the chest implicit value, meaning as long as I didn't pour all my money into it, basically anything I did to it could only make it more valuable (save the aforementioned garbage rolls).

The Skullhead example was a poor use of currency because I didn't just desire a specific outcome, I needed that outcome for the build to work, and it cost me an inordinate amount of currency that handicapped further progression. The 5l chest was an excellent use of currency because that alchemy and chaos orb essentially trippled my net-worth.

To summarize everything and frame it in a different fashion: crafting, from an economic standpoint, is essentially fine - there's appropriate difficulty provided by RNG in order to make very light orb use on inherently valuable items worthwhile. Crafting in order to facilitate build progression, is not - the RNG can act as a barrier to basic skill support, let alone actually rolling specific mods on an item - to such an extent that it is very often the wrong choice. Crafting for profit is much easier because you're aiming for a broad target - crafting for a specific build is infuriating. Standard players must feel this tenfold, since it's very likely that any gear they could want to craft is available on poexyz for a fraction of either what it would cost to craft, or could cost to craft - eliminating variables is a smart move in any situation, not just economics.

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Splift wrote:

eases off and only shoot the big easy to hit fish.

check ladders, go do jsp, check poe section - compare names