...::: [1.1.0] TK's ST CoC Shadow aka THE WELDER :::...

You cant say this build has been completely theory crafted when you havent played recently. There's been so many changes.

I used your set up for the first 80 levels, saw some flaws so I changed a few things. My set up may not be for everyone. It works with my gearing though.

After the changes to AB I'm dealing ~double the damage I was before with dual Kris's. Mind you I have gotten a few more nodes but in no way is my dmg or clear speed low. If dmg or clear speed is poor in any CoC build, they have seriously fucked up. I'm running 77s solo with no problems and my clear speed is awesome.

I run GMP solo because it works well with the double shotgunning spells. I swap it for LMP in parties though. Mind you I'm only running 2 spells so the clutter from adding AB isnt as bad.

I agree with both TH and Blaes. Shields are great for CoC builds. Not in this one though.

Im sitting on 3.8k armor, 3400 life, capped resists and 3% off max block and 36% spell block (i said 70% before but i recently moved into blinding speed node) That is without a chest armor. You say I've crippled single target damage but I promise you mine is a LOT higher than yours from my different gems + different nodes.

By dropping acro I took more crit chance + 18% more attack speed to help make up for lost crits from losing Kris'.

Its also worthy to note that Bereks ring doesnt even exist anymore besides in standard.

About Ice spear you said:

"They are both projectiles and act in same way (- aoe on IS)"

and

"Wrong again. IS has ability to shoot behind enemies and kill tough enemies at back like totems or necros. Tested in practice, you're theorizing too much.

It's commendable that you're trying to improve build but really, this build is already field tested and polished really well. Your changes are not good, to put things simply."

Did you not even read what I said? Im not focusing on killing units behind the boss. Im using shotgunning with 2 aoe spells to raise my single target dps through the fucking roof. Speccing a CoC build into being better at taking down packs is the most useless thing ever. You cant call my changes poor when you havent tested anythign and havent reached 76+ maps. Im glad you tested your build last month in maps under 74 but things have changed and the difficulty scales up hard.

In higher maps with acro, no armor, 3k life and no other mitigation, mobs will eventually hit you and a single white mob hit will bring you down past half. Goodluck

I'm sorry if I come down on you too hard but you must understand that most of things that bother you now or that you are considering or changing are been tested and calculated long time ago. It is clear that you don't understand this game mechanics too well and yet you try to improve and change, that often can be irritating to "veterans", you must understand that same questions and discoveries rise again and again cyclically, and I'm really tired educating everyone.

Shotgunning means that all of your spells hit single target. You don't need AB or AoE for that, all projectile spells work, yes, even if they pierce like IS. IS can do everything that AB can, but AB cannot do nearly things IS can. I shotgun most mobs with *nine* spells if they are close enough.

Still I always considered AB valid alternative, it's clearly stated in my guide already, I've used it long time and if it was buffed, even better. My advice is that forget numbers and try both setup for some time. If getting back on some spell seems like step back, you'll know what is "better".

Armor is great for stopping many small hits, exactly as we do *not* need. Big hits pass thru armor like butter, besides, when was last time that you were killed by melee? Big AoE boss spells is our biggest problem, and your armor cannot help you with that and your spell block is way too low to make any difference. You would need or ratpith shield which is not good or rainbowstride for additional 24% spell defense - yet another glass cannon item without health or resi - we cannot afford it. Whatever you do you sacrifice too much.

With your amu you're loosing some global chd (raw dps) and you're loosing 70+ HP - ultimately close to 500HP on the end. All additional spell defense you've gained is pointless whey you are overall more squishy. So you've lost dps and 450+HP for 30% of spell block - simply, not worth it. Your chc chance is, how much, around 60%? Again, it's raw 30% dps less (plus damage from amu) it's not big problem on big groups but you can have painfully long "non crit" periods on single targets - it is creating big problem and you've gained too little on offside.

More HP and defending with acro/spell acro is better choice then what you have done. Same spell defense, much better overall offense, much more HP.

I completely understand the mechanics. Lol "veteran". Thanks for the laugh.

I realize that all spells shotgun while something like an arrow or ST doesnt. I guess I've been wording it wrong. Your argument for Ice Spear is that it does more damage because it hits everyone in the fight while I'm talking about hitting the boss/front mob with a much harder spell. They are both hitting X amount of times, but mine is hitting 1 target harder.

A massive part of ice spear is that it gains extra crit once its travelled a bit. If you plan to shotgun you wont be getting that bonus.

Thats why I have block on top of my armor + max resists + ability to run purity of whichever element the boss hits for. My character has the ability to fight any boss (not atziri) except palace dom so clearly the sacrifice is worth it. Im stacking mitigation while your a 1 trick pony.

Your math with Shotgunning *9* shots is pretty dumb too. My 6 shots are hitting harder than your 9... By a long shot. With GMP I can also hit with 10. And yes Ive tried both AB and the other suggested spells(which I've said multiple times already). The fact that you continue to bash AB after multiple people have told you its on par with or even stronger than FB now is hilarious. You havent even seen it!

My weapons have 1.55 attack speed each compared to your 1.2. I hate having to educate people again (who the fuck says this) BUT your weapons attack speed scales with attack speeds nodes! Who woulda thought! Your build has 40% from nodes + 16% from haste + 10% from dual wielding. My build has 58% + 16% + 10% from dual wielding. This means that Kris attacks 1.992 times per second. Mine attacks 2.852 times per second. That means I have a little under 31% more spectral throw attacks than you!! Funny enough, thats a larger % than the apparent 30% dmg drop im taking. I also have close to 70% crit with my power charges. That actually makes my "painfully long non crit periods" shorter than yours! Funny how that works out.

500 life from my ammy! Where are you getting this math from! I didnt know I was using a RF tree. Your build has 194% increased life. With a perfect roll on it (79 life) you'd get 232 health. At least for higher maps (once you reach where the veterans are at, you'll understand), I would take 30% spell block over 232 life any day of the week. If I find a well rolled life ammy with high spell damage + crit mods I'll put it on instead.

Your crazy math still hasnt looked at the fact that those nodes are still costing you 32% cold dmg on my OP AB + 5% freeze + 5% reduced mana + Pcoc + life regen + 24% increased mana + 40% mana regen + 24% more armor + no movespeed impairment from wearing armor.

You think this build is the most superior thing ever. "Most of the things that bother you now or that you are considering changing are been tested and calculated a long time ago". In your 67 maps? You havent done testing in high maps. Your 74 videos are of you fighting packs... real tough with CoC. You havent done any testing with the new spells... but than again, I guess you are a veteran. Things change man.

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KBdark wrote:

I completely understand the mechanics.

Confidence is good if well founded. Your changes are inefficient, hence you're far from "completely" understand anything.

"

They are both hitting X amount of times, but mine is hitting 1 target harder.
A massive part of ice spear is that it gains extra crit once its travelled a bit. If you plan to shotgun you wont be getting that bonus.

When IS pierces, it still gets crit bonus and aditional form damage. It's win-win, can't you see? You either crit or shotgun/pierce *and* crit.

"

Thats why I have block on top of my armor + max resists + ability to run purity of whichever element the boss hits for. My character has the ability to fight any boss (not atziri) except palace dom so clearly the sacrifice is worth it. Im stacking mitigation while your a 1 trick pony.

You have sacrificed acro + spell acro, they both give you as much mitigation as your spell block, armor and block. And they don't take toll on offense. I've already told you my defensive numbers, you're claiming you have great theoretical knowledge, do some math, check it out.

"

Your math with Shotgunning *9* shots is pretty dumb too.

If you cannot understand something it doesn't mean -it- is dumb. For me using triple spell felt better then conc effect +2, no matter what theory said. Now it's perhaps different, but my build was always flexible on spells you can use and I've swapped them from map to map regularly.

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The fact that you continue to bash AB after multiple people have told you its on par with or even stronger than FB now is hilarious. You havent even seen it!

I already told that it's totally viable choice. What bashing you exactly talk about I wander.

"

My weapons have 1.55 attack speed each compared to your 1.2. I hate having to educate people again (who the fuck says this) BUT your weapons attack speed scales with attack speeds nodes! Who woulda thought! Your build has 40% from nodes + 16% from haste + 10% from dual wielding. My build has 58% + 16% + 10% from dual wielding. This means that Kris attacks 1.992 times per second. Mine attacks 2.852 times per second. That means I have a little under 31% more spectral throw attacks than you!! Funny enough, thats a larger % than the apparent 30% dmg drop im taking. I also have close to 70% crit with my power charges. That actually makes my "painfully long non crit periods" shorter than yours! Funny how that works out.

Oh dear, here we go again. You want to educate me? LOL. You have *zero* spell damage bonus on your daggers. You have no crit jewelry. How high is your spell damage bonus? How high is your crit multiplier? Your damage output is severely lacking on several levels. No amount of attack speed is gonna make up for that. Besides what "your build" or "your tree" you're fantasizing about? Taking other guy tree and changing two passives does not make it yours or new. All you did is took extra mana nodes (why?) and blinding speed. 12% more attack speed. Woah what brave and radical thing :)

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500 life from my ammy! Where are you getting this math from! I didnt know I was using a RF tree. Your build has 194% increased life. With a perfect roll on it (79 life) you'd get 232 health.

Look, you have 3500 HP, I have 3900. You have 30% spell block, I have 30% spell dodge.
What math you need to see what is better?

"

Your crazy math still hasnt looked at the fact that those nodes are still costing you 32% cold dmg on my OP AB + 5% freeze + 5% reduced mana + Pcoc + life regen + 24% increased mana + 40% mana regen + 24% more armor + no movespeed impairment from wearing armor.

I had most of it, saw my first tree? Respecced it, you know why? Because all things you've mention were either redundant, irrelevant, unnecessary or inefficient.

"

You think this build is the most superior thing ever. "Most of the things that bother you now or that you are considering changing are been tested and calculated a long time ago". In your 67 maps? You havent done testing in high maps. Your 74 videos are of you fighting packs... real tough with CoC. You havent done any testing with the new spells... but than again, I guess you are a veteran. Things change man.

Things might change but things that confuse you are actually haven't changed. This build is not most superior, but you lack knowledge to change it to better, and you're too arrogant to listen to others that are actually trying to help. My videos were really only there for people to get the feel of how this build should be played, not as demonstration of size of my weenie and how high can I go. I assure you, I've played my share of high level maps, but this is irrelevant now.

Ultimately we all chose way we want to play, what fits our style mostly or what we like. If going low crit high block suits you, knock yourself out. Just don't think you've "discovered" something better then it already was. I bet you never even tested this build the way it meant to be played. You've just make some mish mash and it seemed so OP that you were really impressed, that's all.

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KBdark wrote:

If I find any time I might make a full guide. Id fear it would be to similar to this one though :p

There's no rule that says you can't make guides similar to others' builds. Yours is a different play style and works great for what you want to do with it. I think you should go for it. :)

I totally followed your guide. I said that. I didnt like some things so I changed it. I'm not making any breakthroughs in this build. I went armor instead

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

When IS pierces, it still gets crit bonus and aditional form damage. It's win-win, can't you see? You either crit or shotgun/pierce *and* crit.

Hows it win-win when the single target damage is half of the alternatives?

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

You have sacrificed acro + spell acro, they both give you as much mitigation as your spell block, armor and block. And they don't take toll on offense.

Yes they do. You lose nodes.

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

Your damage output is severely lacking on several levels. No amount of attack speed is gonna make up for that.

Said this before. Unless youve failed miserably, CoC builds hit damn hard no matter what your building. My damage output is great. And yes attack speed does help make up for it.

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

Look, you have 3500 HP, I have 3900. You have 30% spell block, I have 30% spell dodge.
What math you need to see what is better?

Youre playing in standard league. Congrats bud you have gear with more health than me. Just a reminder you said "an amulet gives 500 health" lollll. That health is for sure with your 5L attached too.

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Thorien_Kell wrote:

Just don't think you've "discovered" something better then it already was.

When did I say this was revolutionary? I realize ungils builds have been around forever. I said I changed a few things for the purpose of tankyness and you called me shit. Youve been a huge cunt through all 26 pages of these comments. Go play that other game youve been busy with.

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Hows it win-win when the single target damage is half of the alternatives?

Because you have guaranteed pierce (meaning multiple targets, multiple damage) then guaranteed crit (meaning nearly triple damage)

One of those spells that don't look good, on paper.

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Yes they do. You lose nodes.

You don't 'lose' nodes invested well.

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Youre playing in standard league. Congrats bud you have gear with more health than me.

Well it wasn't standard when I've started it you know :)

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I said I changed a few things for the purpose of tankyness and you called me shit. Youve been a huge cunt through all 26 pages of these comments. Go play that other game youve been busy with.

When I said anything bad to you besides that you have made inefficient changes?

Funny, isn't it? You say to guy that he is wrong and he cannot take it otherwise then all up close and personal like I've called him a piece of shit :) I've helped tons of ppl on this 26 pages of thread btw.

Anyways I'm done arguing. I try to focus on being tanky on a budget and single target damage. It works incredibly well for me. That guy wanted me to post it so I did. We do different things and its a trade off for what we feel we need.

I'd recommend logging in and trying AB just for a few minutes so you could possibly update the guide if you like it. Ice spear is good, i used it until a week or two ago. I just feel like there are more stronger options out there now.

I am currently playing this build on invasion and i think more focus needs to be towards surviving rather than damage. As said you will always be doing damage and really only need a crit rate of around 60-70% to be semi consistent. Having zero armor and nowhere near max evasion really hurts. white mobs are chunking me. Im at the point where i cant clear merciless without the risk of being 1 shotted at 3k life.

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KBdark wrote:

Anyways I'm done arguing. I try to focus on being tanky on a budget and single target damage. It works incredibly well for me. That guy wanted me to post it so I did. We do different things and its a trade off for what we feel we need.

I'd recommend logging in and trying AB just for a few minutes so you could possibly update the guide if you like it. Ice spear is good, i used it until a week or two ago. I just feel like there are more stronger options out there now.

I must say again - going more tanky is totally OK but don't sacrifice acro/spell acro - you've done nothing then. Armor doesn't make up for loss, stay with eva and do acro, if you want to block/block gear that's fine.

But if you feel this is good enough, OK.

Even if and when return to PoE I've already made incinerate tank, corpse explosion witch and poison arrow /fire trap characters so I doubt I'll ever play welder again. Exploring new things is important part of PoE, for me anyway.

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bendoverxnao wrote:

I am currently playing this build on invasion and i think more focus needs to be towards surviving rather than damage. As said you will always be doing damage and really only need a crit rate of around 60-70% to be semi consistent. Having zero armor and nowhere near max evasion really hurts. white mobs are chunking me. Im at the point where i cant clear merciless without the risk of being 1 shotted at 3k life.

Yea, I'm not sure if this build is that great for HC tbh. I know one guy that did it, but he used berek ring, Life leech, FP and arc (gaining all resources from attack spells) and had normal, good 6L armor. That is how you can do it smoothly. 6L chest would actually be preferable, you lose some flexibility but defense gain is tremendous.

Armor or eva are not that important for this build. We are not melee, we are not expected to tank hits from melee mobs. It need some time to learn to play this build properly. You need to use whirling blades extensively. Check my videos, see how often I get hit by melee. It literally doesn't happen. For archers - You can whirl left and right launching ST on pause-stops, all archers will miss you. Mobility is important part of defense.

Having block, evasion, acrobatics and spell acro is the other (and healthy health pool, resi capped). I sometimes do half map without being hit.

But yes, those rare things we do get hit can be a problem if you play HC.

Again, armor does not protect from spells, Boss AoE spell attacks, or big hits. Those thing are only real dangers.

I am aware of need maximizing defense but this build is quite streched already. You can try to go with dual gauches +spell block, just don't abandon acro. Proper 6L will be more then welcome. Life leech as third spell. Perhaps maximizing resi on gear and using grace instead of purity or just using grace instead of haste. I'm not sure anything more you can do.