Wealth without trading

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reboticon wrote:

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Zalm wrote:

I think thats the issue we have more often than not. People see others with epic godly gear and think that eventually they deserve getting gear similar to this. They think they are owed it.

They are in fact, owed nothing, but when they think this way, with how closed minded and stubborn people are in todays era, they are unlikely to be persuaded otherwise. They dont deserve godly gear, they arent owed it, but they think simply because other people have it, and they have invested enough time, they are owed. Being wrong is something this generation of gamer has an issue with.

Personally, I disagree completely. It's a video game, not a job. If you put in 300 hours grinding for gear, yeah, I feel you are owed that gear, because it's a game, and it's pixels, and one would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the point is to have fun. One would also assume that after a certain amount of time farming, you would get a good drop, because these games function entirely as a skinner box. Without reward, people eventually break themselves from the box, and then they aren't going to buy microtransactions.

Well you can go on playing a game thats random, and continue to think you are owed great gear after a time investment of whatever hours. You arent owed this, and shouldnt be. If you want a game where you can get guaranteed drops, there are tons of MMOs out there that have dungeons, raids, and bosses which have a certain drop, no matter what.

Games like WoW, Tera, Rift, etc all have a certain location for a certain drop. That kind of mentality that 'I'm owed this drop because I played this long' works perfectly there, but here, where anything can drop from anywhere but its all random, you will never get a promised drop form anywhere.

I think that might be the leading factor to people thinking they are owed certain gears. They come other mmos where certain time investment means certain gear rewards, when in fact, in an ARPG, this is not true.

"but here, where anything can drop from anywhere but its all random, you will never get a promised drop form anywhere."

Except that it can't. Now many are gated in high level maps, and certain parts of the drop table are extremely weighted against other parts. If it were actually "random" it would be a different story. If one were to farm 100 unique drops from level 70 monsters in a random system, the chance that ALL of them would be level 35 or below is statistically close to impossible. Here, it is probable.

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reboticon wrote:

"but here, where anything can drop from anywhere but its all random, you will never get a promised drop form anywhere."

Except that it can't. Now many are gated in high level maps, and certain parts of the drop table are extremely weighted against other parts. If it were actually "random" it would be a different story. If one were to farm 100 unique drops from level 70 monsters in a random system, the chance that ALL of them would be level 35 or below is statistically close to impossible. Here, it is probable.

This is true, that certain game changers like Voltaxic and Auxium are only available in high level, and they dont drop all the often themselves, but even in other games of this genre, there are certain gears you wont find unless you are high enough level to find them(basically). And anything below your level is going to be able to drop, expanding the drop table to an extent that its ridiculous, but thats the thing about RNG in an ARPG. Its random, and the best stuff is so powerful but absurdly rare that you will likely not find it yourself, and have to trade for it.

Its one of the key factors in this genre when it comes to multiplayer. You have to trade for your stuff.

Go for a 4 hour bike ride, and see what it gets me. Sigh. This thread had nothing to do with luxury items like you all are arguing about. It had to do with a problem I see the developers facing as to how to create a system in which different playstyles can all be accommodated. I was hoping to get some input from the players as to how much an hourly, or daily, rate of wealth was reasonable so that they could weight in time how much a given recipe would cost a solo player.

We've gotten some feedback in there... thanks for that.

But really you can take your bitchfest somewhere else if you would.

Oh... you don't have to trade for stuff. You can if you want. You might try to justify your choice by saying "you have to" but you are lying to yourself. You can play this game and others like it without having anyone play the game for you.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Go for a 4 hour bike ride, and see what it gets me. Sigh. This thread had nothing to do with luxury items like you all are arguing about. It had to do with a problem I see the developers facing as to how to create a system in which different playstyles can all be accommodated. I was hoping to get some input from the players as to how much an hourly, or daily, rate of wealth was reasonable so that they could weight in time how much a given recipe would cost a solo player.

We've gotten some feedback in there... thanks for that.

But really you can take your bitchfest somewhere else if you would.

Oh... you don't have to trade for stuff. You can if you want. You might try to justify your choice by saying "you have to" but you are lying to yourself. You can play this game and others like it without having anyone play the game for you.

To the op, I guess it did derail abit, sorry.

Basically, your waiting for the self found league. The league where drops are alot more common, but there is no trading. Thats fine, but its not out yet, and asking them to alter the drop rate for the entire game is a bad idea. Making the game available for your play style would drastically alter my playstyle.

You took the mantle of self found, no trades, for the challenge, not the reward.

Absolutely not... I'm not looking to modify the game at all. I am vocally opposed to a self found league. I'm not looking to become "wealthy". I'm looking for a reasonable estimate as to what can be expected to be had through reasonable play without trading. That's all.

I for one think the current rate of crafting 1 top end item per 250,000 man hours is too generous.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Absolutely not... I'm not looking to modify the game at all. I am vocally opposed to a self found league. I'm not looking to become "wealthy". I'm looking for a reasonable estimate as to what can be expected to be had through reasonable play without trading. That's all.

Oh...well, your probabaly going to get 15-20 c worth of currency playing self found no trades. I tried three different leagues on three different characters, all about the same. Its mixed currency though, (fuse, alts, jewls, chroms, etc) not pure. Pure would likely mean trades.

All these chars were up to 65-69 without fighting dominus in merc.

In my book, good grinding rate is 2 chaos per hour (10-15 hours per exalt).

This excludes lucky drops, like most expensive orbs and popular uniques.

There are at least two types of trading:
- buy/sell orbs and popular itemsat well-known prices or a bit lower for fast trades
- stay online just for trading, spam trade chat, flip items, run shops, run lotteries

First type of trading is pretty much ok for self-found, it's like using vendor recipes.

Speaking about the topic of the posts on last two pages here, if an average player puts 300 hours into a game of any genre and is not rewarded by 1-2 truly distinguishable/'gg'/build enabling items, he will get bored/frustrated and just leave for another game. We can argue, because each of us acts differently, but on average this is how it works because it is gaming afterall, not real life where people have to try or stick to something for years even without such rewards. People play games to experience something better, easier, more exciting and more rewarding than real life and can easily switch games. I'm sure guys at GGG understand it as well if they want to stay in business with PoE for more than a couple of years.

The concept of wealth applied to self found. LOL!
Pointless thread.

If you play self found, orbs are crafting materials, nothing more. An exalt is not worth 20-30 chaos or whatever, it adds a mod to a rare. End of story.

You should be measuring how long it takes to find gear upgrades, not "wealth".