@Supporters : Should GGG use some of its money to buy videogame Psychologists Expertise ?

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Inexium wrote:

I realised that Kripparian has a 100% chance to make a better build than mine,

I know how you feel, but I stubbornly dont build the best build and build whatever takes my fancy. I think it drives my cousin Vvaridus up the wall ;)

"

SteenMachine wrote:

don't judge people's opinions by their forum supporter title. Not everyone feels the need to show their generosity off.

There are many types of supporters : you can find those who support the game just to try it ( closed beta ), you have those who tried it through a closed beta KEY fall in love and bought a supporter pack. You have also those who loved PoE and saw how GGG is going in the right direction so they choose to give share money in hope it makes the best game ever. You have aswell those who just can't stand being able to play a good game for free ( like me ) you feel that you MUST pay, even if it's small like buying microtransactions... you know
And you have those who.. etc

So who am i really talking to when i write @Supporters ?

I am talking to those who made a bet and gambled. To be honest i found myself interested by everybody's opinion.


_____

I did not really want to discuss Kripparian stream benefits VS harm but some of you wanted to understand my opinion : fortispectus made a great comment explaining it ( please check page 2)
Oh and again : "This thread is not about the benefits of having streamers or the harm."

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gilrad wrote:

If GGG is to hire anybody to improve player satisfaction, I'd much rather they sign a contract with the guy in charge of behavior adjustment in League of Legends.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/

This is the kind of stuff that could benefit PoE as a whole.

Wow i started the video thinking i had to have a glimpse of it, i found myself watching it all.

Lol devs said :

"

We had to find experts.. in specialised expertises but "they had to be hardcore gamers aswell"

This thread is more about gameplay psychology than social psychology but we can talk about it : GGG_SUPPORT is a good step towards improving your poe game life but they still have a lot to learn. Example : the fairly recent event forum drama related to a player called : ARP****( someone who gave a lot of money to GGG btw)! We had the biggest number of comment on poe Reddit ever seen (250+) about it, we had a player saying : "watch the ones you love being brutally murdered etc etc " He had a day probation .. Sweet!
We had a dev ( Rory ) saying if he could close that reddit post he would have done it.

What can GGG_SUPPORT learn from lol ? They can learn how to adjust punishements to different players behaviour.



Very severe toxicity should be punished appropriately even if it is a "first time" + " no probation in the past "

let's look at lol social control :


Random negative toxic behaviour can result on a warning

But very severe toxicity including words like : "murder" is handled this way :



A lot of players in poe were dissapointed by ggg SUPPORT handling of a guy who said this :



Last i checked, he had this comment :



Poor social moderation, people are still angry and whenever that guy writes a thread some players start reminding him about his misdeed.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

As the author of a post cited in the OP, I want to emphasize that I do not agree whatsoever with the notion of GGG hiring experts to help make the game more addictive. You can't just compartmentalize that; an expert in addiction or Skinner Box techniques in animals is not an expert in how to make a game more addictive, or how to incorporate Skinner Box techniques to a game's benefit (rather than its detriment, as Zinga often has, and employs psychologists to assist with).

Now, would I like Qarl and Chris to pick up a copy of A Theory of Fun? Hell yeah I would.

But I'd wager they already have.

What i want is a hardcore player involved in poe dev. Are there any ? Maybe Neon but i am not sure, i want actual devs to be on the ladder. Someone experciencing the game more than any regular player morning modifying the game evening.

I guess we can say that devs are already hardcore players ( Diablo 1/2 ).. is it enough ? I can't answer.

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arsonall wrote:

Spoiler

you made a bold point that the devs don't/can't play the game.
This is not true.

There are Devs that are well ranked in the season races.

Chris just played this weekend.

they are often online answering questions global.

This is one aspect that they get inspiration for the game: the community...this place.

If you're looking to give input, you can get it from here, no need for psychologists.

if you're wondering about psychological aspects of video gaming, look up spike/johnny/timmy/vorthos/melvin with relation to Magic the Gathering, and realize that GGG love MtG, and many games develop around this same aspect.

In season race ? Who ?
Played this week end ? That's not enough i want them to be no-lifes and neglect their game develpment ( their life)
At least one week a month :D not several WEs a month.
Doing this they will understand how the game feels!

But why ask devs to be nolifes and over test their game ? Why don't we(i feel part of ggg like every player caring about GGG i presume) hire hardcore videogame psychologists ? I don't really want real psychologist who studied psychology at the university, no not that let's make this clear. Experts being hardcore poe players is what i would like to see.

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NameIsDon wrote:

Why would they need psychologists when they themselves are the core ARPG players?

Just answered you.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

A video game psychologist is a flawed premise in the first place. That position already exists and it's called 'game designer.'

If you enjoy POE, it's because of things that are in the game are enjoyable. Who put those things there? A psychologist? Or a game designer. An artist. A musician.

When players burn out that doesn't mean the psychology of the game is broken. Nothing lasts forever. Players move on when they finish with something. GGG can extend it by adding more art, more acts, more STUFF, but they can't make it indefinite. A psychologist isn't what they need to prolong the game. It's more artists, more designers, more content creators. That's how they extend the life of the game.

Sometimes in life you just "need to do it" no psychologist could help, he can even make you go backward, .
"more artists, more designers, more content creators" is a viable strategy IMO. Just do it GGG no need for psychologist.
On the other hand, when you give GGG 1000$+(@Supporters) do you want GGG to become a company who makes a good game or to become an unequalled unmatched company who can do everything they can to improve all levels of gameplay ? Including hiring some hardcore players as gameplay 'psychology' experts ?
You can have your opinion, this is a general discussion, i am ready to hear anything and my opinion would be :
Yes we need devs or new devs who can nolife poe.

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DalaiLama wrote:

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Inexium wrote:

Supporters and non supporters begin talking about money use, they start discussing wether we should have psychologist who can understand how poe can be more and less addictive or NO.

Psychologists don't have the same sort of success rate in their field that engineers and programmers do. It isn't the sort of science where the rules are as fixed as others like chemistry. There's also the caveat that its one thing to talk about a "group" but quite another to determine what individuals amongst a large group feel or think.

In simple terms, psychology isn't geared for this, at least not currently. The MTG analysis of Timmy, Johnny and Spike is probably the most useful psychology piece written so far in terms of gaming.

If it just took hiring a good Psych team, Blizzard could have thrown money at that problem and fixed everything a long time ago.

So, I don't think this would help GGG in any way, unless they needed a tax write off

I just had a glimple about this analysis => Yes this kind of studies should be done here ! Do you want GGG to hire experts like these ?
I found myself more johnny with my no life nodes builds than a Spike ( Spike's style requires a lot of investment ). I presume players who follow builds are Timmy's

Arcticle1- A lot of people prefer to stick to their failed char rather than to go start a new one and become happy. You can see a lot of them here complaining, saying : where do you find exalts ? How people can do 100+ex giveaways ? They tell you : Ow i never used poe.xyz.is i just never trusted it. Conclusion : a year of playing poe, not happy and adapting to failure by saying things like :

- I don't have that unique build enabler because exalts do never drop therefore i am sticking to my failed char. ( Game's fault)
- 500EXALTS+ in stash ? 100% RMT. ( RMT fault )
- no 5L/6L : Crafting random garbage ( RNG craft fault, which everyone of us could agree with sometimes but W/E )

As for Article2 and Article3 I could discuss them later i don't feel doing it now.
I gave that example to let readers know that psychology of gaming isn't a unicorn, it was a thread enabler :) only that and that's why i am not willing to discuss wether that website is rubbish or not ( not now at least)

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Blizzard hired teams of economists and psychologists to help design D3. So, no. Stop it.

Exaclty as i said : Psychology can make you go backward.
I want hardcore "POE" players as experts not just some random expert from nowhere.

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ciknay wrote:

Just so you guys know, you can look at game design as applied psychology.

The designers are intentionally manipulating the player into having the experience that the designer wants, or to put it bluntly, to have 'fun'.

Yep, but game designers are not testing their game that much imo.

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NotRegret wrote:

Spoiler

in any game of high skill level there will be good players that tower over the lesser ones like gods.

In PoE a lot of the 'skill' can be acquired just by following a guide. This is true for many other games. You can learn the combos from the tournament pros. You can watch a speed run of contra/gradius and learn good tactics. However poe is a very low skill cap game. Even if you memorize all the combos in street fighter you still get your ass kicked if you arn't quick, calm, and able to read opponents. Enemies patterns in contra/gradius are lightning quick, often difficult to predict, and the slightest mistake is punished greatly.

In PoE most content is overcome through simply grinding, whether for levels or currency to buy better gear. Reaction time does play a small factor but enemies are much less dangerous and much more predictable than in steet fighter, contra, or gradius. Mistakes are easily fixed with potions, town portals, or just extra grinding.

In other words because PoE is a low-skill game once you have been taught the correct techniques
(good build, effective grinding methods) than there isn't too much else to the game.

Well there is something to dig here.
The best solution GGG came up with is : RACES.

Last note : Remember this is a general discussion you are free and welcome to give your opinion, no need to be mad while showing your point of view but you can do it whatever.

(In the end i don't want just 'psychologists' i will edit the op to add this note.)



Let's assume GGG did not make that announcement about insane ilvl uniques just to see how we will respond.

Let's assume that they were really surprised by the feedback and quickly choose to change what they announced ( Ref : 1 and 2 )


If we had poe hardcore players as members of the staff this would not happen right? Hire new devs who can nolife poe and live what players are experiencing.

Hi

I thought the point of Alpha players was to be no lifers and test this stuff out... not us the players as guinea pigs.

cheers

"

DalaiLama wrote:

"

ciknay wrote:

Just so you guys know, you can look at game design as applied psychology.

The designers are intentionally manipulating the player into having the experience that the designer wants, or to put it bluntly, to have 'fun'.

I'd agree with your first statement. On the second, I don't think the game designers need to manipulate the player, all they need to do is afford the opportunity to have fun. I'm sure some games try to steer the player too much, while others don't offer enough structure.

It's put very bluntly. An example of what I mean: To teach a player that thing = good, we may use positive behavioural reinforcement to make you WANT to get thing. We're manipulating you to get thing, but with a pat on the back.

Path of exile does this a lot. How satisfying is the sound made when you level up? When you allocate a point? When you see a unique drop? When an orb drops? It's all unconscious stuff.



I'm rambling


EDIT: Just realised that Inexum put it far more eloquently that I did. Props bro.

"

Inexium wrote:

(In the end i don't want just 'psychologists' i will edit the op to add this note.)

Spoiler

Hello fellows :)

Let's assume GGG did not make that announcement about insane ilvl uniques just to see how we will respond.

Let's assume that they were really surprised by the feedback and quickly choose to change what they announced ( Ref : 1 and 2 )


If we had poe hardcore players as members of the staff this would not happen right? Hire new devs who can nolife poe and live what players are experiencing.

Sorry if this is a double post - Windows 7 is seriously FUBAREd when it comes to keyboard shortcuts and likes to kick me out of the posting process. (Yeah it might be a PEBKAC error too on my part).


I think GGG has lots of people who are hardcore players. You and other posters may be right that they don't get the long term playing time necessary to see some of the problems.

Forum posters often complain about how OP stuff is and ask for lots of Nerfs.

GGG was likely surprised that its vocal fan base was far more "softcore" than that fan base has acted on the forums.

None of this has to do with psychology.

GGG wants to make the top rares and uniques very rare and hard to get.

There is nothing wrong with that premise.

The problem- which many players have stated in a plethora of threads - is that higher level maps are not allocated in a way that reinforces challenging play.


GGG increased map drops. GGG didn't (to my knowledge) add in any super tough invisible map/monster modifiers that would increase the level of map drops while making that map increasingly difficult.

GGG needs to find a way to allow difficulty to boost RNG so that challenging maps are more likely to yield better maps.

Let's say for instance GGG added Map mod A, B and C. All are hidden from the players, so they can't try to roll them intentionally. These map modifiers would only be possible on level 70+ maps.

Mod A gives all rare and unique mobs 3x hitpoints, 2X damage, +50% on all attack,casting,movement speed etc. It also adds a 50% chance that any map dropped will be of the same level as the existing map and a 25% chance that any map dropped will be higher level than the existing map. The map would have a 75% chance of 1 map dropping and +25% chance of 2 or more dropping.

Mod B is like A except for 5x mob HP, +50% to all mob resists (and raises their resistance cap by 10%)and gives the mobs +50% life/ES regeneration. In return 75% of maps dropped will be the same level, and 10% will be higher level. The map would have a 100% chance of 1 map dropping and a + 35% chance of additional maps (2 or more) dropping.

Mod C would give mobs 8X HP, add slower player life/mana/ES regen, temporal chains, critical weakness, and a couple bonus mob abilties (could be keystones such as Resolute Technique, Chaos Immunity, or could be immunity to fire, physical damage or whatnot) In return Mod C maps would give 25% chance same level map, 50% 1-2 higher level map, 10% 3 level higher map.
The map would have at least 2 maps drop, and a +40% chance of additional maps (3 or more) dropping.


The players would only know that the map was Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy harder than they expected and be excited that should they survive, they would get some very nice map drops.

You might even have a super tough D mod where the boss was guaranteed to drop a higher level map for every person in the party.


Again, these map mods would be hidden from the player and not controllable. You would only suspect them because the map was so tough.

I alos think that different playstyle/different build should affect RNG.
Let's say you have the choice between a very fast clearing areas build farmer and a slow but unique build. There is nothing, really,encouraging you to try cool builds that* do not match the high dps high survival builds category.

But i think it's intended, not everybody must win.

"

VaultzInex wrote:

I alos think that different playstyle/different build should affect RNG.
Let's say you have the choice between a very fast clearing areas build farmer and a slow but unique build. There is nothing, really,encouraging you to try cool builds who do not match the high dps high survival builds category.

But i think it's intended, not everybody must win.

NECRO WARNING - NECRO WARNING - NECRO WARNING


YEAR OLD POST NECROED

DO NOT BE FOOLED

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Isbox1 wrote:

"

VaultzInex wrote:

I alos think that different playstyle/different build should affect RNG.
Let's say you have the choice between a very fast clearing areas build farmer and a slow but unique build. There is nothing, really,encouraging you to try cool builds who do not match the high dps high survival builds category.

But i think it's intended, not everybody must win.

NECRO WARNING - NECRO WARNING - NECRO WARNING


YEAR OLD POST NECROED

DO NOT BE FOOLED

I made the thread i can necro it to continue the discussion ;)

"

NotRegret wrote:

in any game of high skill level there will be good players that tower over the lesser ones like gods.

In PoE a lot of the 'skill' can be acquired just by following a guide. This is true for many other games. You can learn the combos from the tournament pros. You can watch a speed run of contra/gradius and learn good tactics. However poe is a very low skill cap game. Even if you memorize all the combos in street fighter you still get your ass kicked if you arn't quick, calm, and able to read opponents. Enemies patterns in contra/gradius are lightning quick, often difficult to predict, and the slightest mistake is punished greatly.

In PoE most content is overcome through simply grinding, whether for levels or currency to buy better gear. Reaction time does play a small factor but enemies are much less dangerous and much more predictable than in steet fighter, contra, or gradius. Mistakes are easily fixed with potions, town portals, or just extra grinding.

In other words because PoE is a low-skill game once you have been taught the correct techniques
(good build, effective grinding methods) than there isn't too much else to the game.

Yep, yep, and yep.
I think the original guild wars hit the nail on the head with how to best do mmo's via gameplay. By offering an awesome shit ton of options to the player(in the form of skills). And through the dynamics of how those skills interact; when used in conjunction with each other on a player, with team mate's skills, and against opponent's skills.

Attacks, counter measures, defensive measures, defense penetration. Like a combination of rock paper scissors magnified by some spy vs spy shit. Balanced so that no one strategy is clearly dominate and limited so that one person cant hold all the prefect counters.

As for Poe, Hack-n-slash is a very easy to play genre. Simple to learn and very little high level thought needed.

IMO, if GGG truly wants to up the bar with its game it needs to take that approach of increased dynamics. But doing so is a massive project for its designers and coders. And im not sure they truly wish to grasp for such lofty goals.

Maybe PoE 2. I dunno.