Fixing Evasion without touching Evasion? Revisiting Acrobatics/Phase Acrobatics

Hi folks. So the recent changes to the skilldrasil are extremely impressive to me -- I've figured out that I can stack quite a bit of life and get all of the evasion nodes, as well as Acrobatics, Phase Acrobatics, Arrow Dodging and, of course, Blood Magic (hey, if you're going to stack life, and you need to WB endlessly to survive, it only makes sense).

This is all fine and well, and I've decided that my little crusade against Iron Reflexes is a futile one (although I'd be happy if they'd change the name to Steel Reflexes, since steel weapons are famous for their balance of strength and flexibility).

This leaves us with the problem of Acrobatics/Phase Acrobatics. These are meant to be the 'uber' keystones of Evasion, true Evasion. If you take these two, you are absolutely dedicated to the idea of evasion. You have turned away from the safety zone of Armour and scorned the trickery of Energy Shield.

A lot of us have been discontent with the A/PA cluster for a while, and finally someone has cooked up a solution I really, really like. You can blame the painfully smart Zakaluka for this one. In my I-Hate-IR thread, he proposed a change to the Acrobatics/Phase Acrobatics cluster that would make it both more attractive to true evaders (sorry, IR users, we don't mean you) and accord to what I've been told many times:

To make true Evasion work, you must have lots of life.

Okay. I can handle that.

Zakaluka proposed that there be two extra nodes after the 'acrobatic improvement' nodes and before 'Phase Acrobatics' that would improve the effectiveness of life passive nods by 2% (I believe it was). Thus these nodes would not actually increase life themselves; they would merely increase all those 8% and 12% life nodes by 2% and 4% respectively. I'm guessing this means 10% and 14%.

It's a clever idea. As he states, it would 'lock away' a life increase behind the wall of Acrobatics thus reserving it for evaders butm at the same time, it'd still force investment in life nodes. It'd increase the survivability of true evaders without buffing IR users and help soften what people call the binary of evasion. The whole 'all or nothing' gamble.

I'm going to take this proposal a few steps further.

Firstly, the separation of Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics can be done away with. The cost of ALL armour and ALL energy shield should be sufficient for one keystone: 20% chance to dodge spells and attacks. Call it Phase Acrobatics still, because that's a cool name.

Okay. First step done.

Next, I'd keep the four 'Acrobatic Improvement' nodes but maybe bump them 1 or even 2% each. 4% extra chance to dodge for four nodes just isn't worth the cost.

Lastly, and here's the kicker: I propose a new keystone where Phase Acrobatics currently is. It'd look something like this:

Uncanny Resilience (?)

Life Passive Nodes are worth X% more.
Cannot block attacks.

To live on the edge is to make the most of your life.

X, naturally, could be predetermined and tested, etc.

So this retains Zakaluka's original idea, consolidates the dodge mechanic into one proper Keystone, puts some improvements to it between the penultimate and the ultimate Evasion skill, and at the same time provides a Keystone that, to me, is definitely build-defining without being completely cost-free.

Thematically, I think if you were to commit yourself to evasion, completely, you wouldn't block. You'd certainly want to be hit less, but this method simulates the 'glancing blows' concept by simply giving the true evader more life.

An alternative could be damage reduction, increased chance to dodge (which can make a huge difference with the math)...I'm open to suggestions, really.

As ever, I'm open to criticism and acknowledge I'm but one player of so many. So it is with the greatest humility that I ask for your feedback.

edit: This whole block moved from the end to the front, because this has been a long discussion and a lot of things changed between here and there. This is the final proposal, I believe. Read on to see how we got there.


mock-up provided by charan, thanks :)

Summary:
-------------
Dodge is now an additive bonus, rather than multiplicative. This adjustment means that by the time you complete the dodge circle, evasion begins to provide fairly linear returns at moderately high evasion rating. Actually, slightly increasing returns. Completing the dodge circle eliminates diminishing returns from evasion rating.

Scale of benefits for average players:
-----------------------------------------
At 50% evasion from rating, this system is just as powerful as the old system.
At 55% evasion from rating, the player gains 1.2% more total avoidance than under the old system.
At 60% evasion from rating, a 2.4% gain.
At 65% evasion from rating, a 3.6% gain.

This is the range I'd expect nearly everyone to fall into.

Below 50% evasion from rating, characters take a similar loss under this new system. That's half the reason why our proposal includes a new life notable inside the A/PA circle. The other reason for that node is just to provide another strong benefit to weigh against giving up armour and ES.


Breakdown:
--------------

Acrobatics: 8% additional chance to evade attacks
Removes all armour and energy shield
Discipline and Training: 12% increased life. +30 life
Acrobatics Improvement: 1% additional chance to evade attacks
Phase Acrobatics: 20% chance to dodge spell damage

The layout is somewhat important; specifically, having disc. and training near the beginning is kind of important. That's because the actual acrobatics keystone loses a little power. Having a fat life bonus early in the circle offsets it. Also, these values are chosen carefully against the cluster costing 7 points. If the values change, the point cost should probably change too.

"

Zakaluka wrote:

2) mathematically life becomes more important.
Armour builds have their hyperbolic increasing gains, so 10% armour nodes are worth more. Our rating gives diminishing returns, so the only meaningful defense beyond the Reflexes notable becomes life.

Umm armor has diminishing returns too.

This is the common belief, but it's not true. Outside endurance, armour has linear returns on effective health. Inside endurance, stacking armour provides increasing gains on effective health. This belief that armour has diminishing returns comes from looking at the reduction graph, which isn't terribly useful.

D3's reduction equation is remarkably similar to PoE's, and it's widely understood that armor in D3 provides linear returns. Just a counter-example.

Here is a graph of effective health vs armour to the reduction cap, in an endurance build.



I've presented the proof of this in quite gory detail, on a number of occasions. Don't want to get side-tracked, here.

Back on subject: the evasion-EH graph looks more like a fractional root. To that point, after you get all the big %evr notables, buying more 10% evr nodes isn't worth terribly much. Leather and steel is "OK" if your build already forces you to pick up mana nodes, but you'll eventually work towards dropping them.

I could also live with a different adjustment: make the farthest points in each half of the evasion circle worth 18% evasion rating each. All points past Reflexes, and the three points at the end of the northern circle:



These points should be worth 18%, whether or not you listen to my other suggestion :D. It's a matter of scaling. Very few people pick up both sides of the evasion circle, because the north end isn't very juicy unless you're building all over the center anyway. With the way evasion scales, adding another 40% accessible rating is barely a drop in the bucket, and only represents a few percent chance to evade. People would still build to reflexes and stop, maybe a few more would complete one half of the circle.

And there's no reason for hybrid classes to have less access to percent evasion. With two nullification circles, you won't see hybrid shadows completing the evasion circle. Even make the top half a mirror of the bottom half - add another Reflexes, maybe?

Not entirely on board with the idea of losing any kind of blocking chance or nodes invested prior to "Uncanny Resilience". If the bonuses and points can be invested towards an appropriate skill attribute like dodge or increased evasion rating then it might have something. I am thinking something similar to Iron Reflexes but the reverse.

Also having a bottlenecked node (can't remember the name but it takes away all ES) to get to the dodge passives is also something I believe should be changed. Hybrid players should have the choice to just invest in dodge passives and keep their currnet attributes but if they are going for a pure evasive/dodge skill then they can select that particular node that will take away all ES and put them towards dodge/evasion stats not just fully render those points useless.

I'm not sure about losing block chance either, as I do build my DW Shadow for block chance and Acro/Phase Acro.

"

Fartfinder wrote:

Also having a bottlenecked node (can't remember the name but it takes away all ES) to get to the dodge passives is also something I believe should be changed. Hybrid players should have the choice to just invest in dodge passives and keep their currnet attributes but if they are going for a pure evasive/dodge skill then they can select that particular node that will take away all ES and put them towards dodge/evasion stats not just fully render those points useless.

i kinda see where your going on this, but to make things more clear the way i was thinking on it was...the first node should only take away armor when u take it and the last node with spell dodge should be the on that takes away your ES. that way u can still be hybrid if you like.

if you look at IR they still can have ES if they like so why shouldn't Acrobatics still keep it too?

with that said thu i do like how Charan has written it up and do think there needs to be changes made to make this skill more useful.

Thanks for the input, guys. Seriously.

Firstly, a certain dev *did* think that Acrobatics took away all armour, and that Phase Acrobatics removed all Energy Shield. I think that's an interesting approach but in the end, it's still asking two keystones and four nodes for what I still believe should be one step: the commitment to evasion over ES and armour.

Firstly, let let me very poorly illustrate how it would look, because you DWers need your mind set at ease regarding Acrobatics:

(KS=Acrobatics--lose all armour and energy shield; gain 20% chance to dodge spells and attacks.)
|
|
(dodge nodes 1 through 4)
|
|
(KS=Uncanny Resilience--lose all block chance, gain some form of DR/increased life.)


So you see, you can still build your block chance and get Acrobatics. All this is doing is slightly more elegantly, and appropriately, implementing Zakaluka's idea of making life 'worth more' to someone who is utterly committed to evasion. I put the negative of 'cannot block' because I feel asking for extra life like that with no drawback is unrealistic. This is a game-changing keystone, as all keystones should be. It's 'locked away' behind the first real step towards committing to evasion, being Acrobatics.

So what I'm proposing is actually a complete addition to the game. Nothing is lost -- that first keystone and the four nodes after it do the same thing as the current six, and the new sixth presents a new path choice for people who really, REALLY want to evade. They'll stick get their evasion bonuses from their shield, as well as any other bonuses, so wearing a shield will still have purpose.

They just won't get that 31% or so chance to block. They'll feel no need to put points into block nodes (which is in itself another way of making evasion work) and simply become much more 'resilient' evaders by the tenets of How To Make Evasion Work: Get A Lot Of Life.


Zakaluka: In a way I feel this is your baby and would accord to any wording you suggest. My role goes as far as the skilldrasil structure of this idea. Consolidate A/PA, review the 4 dodge nodes after it, implement your idea as a keystone, because that is what it is -- a keystone-worthy idea. It's not something I'd bury in smaller nodes. It's just too significant for that.

The big question is, would this 'fix' evasion in people's eyes? I don't see how not. The IR people can still IR away, the DWers can still grab Acrobatics and the 4 dodge nodes whilst boosting their life and block chance, and the true evaders can get Uncanny Resilience and 'plug' that hole that everyone keeps talking about: life.

That all said, I'm still interested in seeing if the new scattering of life nodes you can grab whilst building an evader will do the trick.

I don't do this very often, but here's what I've managed to do regarding evasion nodes and life acquisition; here's Charan at end-game, Skilldrasil-wise:

Not for critique purposes, just look.

If this is a sufficient amount of life acquisition as well as the fact that I think I've picked up every single evasion node, A/PA/AD and BM, then Uncanny Resilience can become something else.

My point is, A/PA can and should be one node, and there's still room for one more keystone 'sealed away' behind it.

Edit: If the life idea is not viable, what about scrapping it and just making the keystone thus:

Cannot block
All evasion nodes are worth X% more

Personally I think that'd be even more powerful than a life bump, but hey, open to ideas here.

Giving up block for 20% life seems like it wouldn't work. Dual wield builds (from the part of the tree I'm used to) top 35% block pretty easy; trading that away would just be a bit hard to stomach, I think.

I don't know, just doesn't seem like a good trade. I was looking at the "downside" to these nodes as taking A/PA in the first place. Something that is generally viewed as a larger hinderance than benefit.

Thus unlocking the two strongest defensive nodes available (if only marginally), in the entire game. Doesn't seem completely off the deep end to me. Other downside is having to spend points in dodge. Don't get me wrong, dodge points are alright - they grant extra defense without pushing evasion farther into the land of bad diminishing returns. But they're kind of a chore to pick up, because while you're buying them they feel about as strong as 10% ev nodes. So you spend all these 5 expensive points, throw your granites away, and get a cool present at the end: 20% more life.

Put dodge in perspective: If I'm riding the line at 50% evade, and I pick up 1% dodge, how much avoidance does that give me?

Avoidance with 50% ev and Acrobatics: 1 - (1-.5)(1-.2) = 60%.
Avoidance with +1% dodge: 1 - (1-.5)(1-.21) = 60.5%.
See that? 1 point spent on dodge is about equivalent to half a percent chance to evade. Too weak. The circle just needs more.

I don't know, I really like the functionality of the way I put it together, and I don't think it needs a further trade-off. It'd just need to be presented in a clever way.

But then, maybe people in development will feel that's too strong. I don't know.


My way it'd be:


........... L - L <- New life nodes on top of the circle
................ +
A - D - D - D - PA

But, let's be clear, if any kind of cool defense were added to the A/PA circle to compensate, I think it'd go a long way. But then, maybe, just the keystone and dodge nodes (ie the whole idea) are too weak if that's necessary.

The cannot block thing is totally optional at this point. Can you come up with a sufficient 'bonus' to justify it?

Also, I just feel that your idea is too big for mere passive nodes. It reeks of Keystone.