Fixing Evasion without touching Evasion? Revisiting Acrobatics/Phase Acrobatics
" And this is why I think it needs to be possible for evasion passives to at least approach HP passives in EHP value. First, "EHP value" is kind of a flawed concept in evasion land, unless you never make a mistake kiting. Stand in one spot for half a moment too long, allow one too many enemies to reach melee range, get a bad hit streak... die. Second, recovery. Gradual percent regen is considerably less efficient for those of us using evasion as primary defense. I don't know about you guys, but I play to avoid getting focused by more than a small handful of bad guys at once. So either I'm full HP or flasking to get full asap. In other words, gradual regen isn't very strong. Active regen like leech and flasks is where it's at. edit: What about a keystone or notable that reduces penalties from flask mods? Evasion characters rely on catalysed, seething and bubbling flasks in every imaginable situation, so even our flasks are less powerful than the armour classes. And they're our big main healing source, too. 1 of 3 possibilities: we need more flask passives, we need more ways to leech life, or we need evasion to contribute more "EHP" (passives and gear need to scale up, rating needs to scale linearly, something). There are a few concerns with additive dodge, though, even this very small amount we've proposed. It makes future balance a lot more of a chore. -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Last edited by Zakaluka#1191 on Oct 17, 2012, 12:03:50 PM
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I agree that EHP is kind of meaningless in the context of evasion, but you mentioned that in one of your first posts kinda sorta, so I knew you knew, such that I knew it wasn't a point of contention. (ya know? :P)
ex. 1000hp with 50% reduction is more or less 1500 hp most of the time. But 1000hp with 50% evasion is 3 hits of 334 damage away from instant death. armor users are also (probably) more likely to stack huge life as well... which makes the situation even more ridiculous to compare, although I'm not sure on the life stacking numbers available in the newest tree. Life stacking is the only real way to gain benefit from, as you said, recovery in general. evasion users take huge chunks out of their life... they need ways to put back huge chunks, much faster than other classes. If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
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There is a way to figure out how much minimum hp they need access to at any given point given the right data.
find the largest possible damage streak at any given game time step such that a player would have at least 500ms to react in order to survive. That is the baseline life that they need to maintain a fair system. This would ensure that at no time would there be a situation where they could just instantly die with no recourse, and users with more hp than that baseline would have either longer to react or could absorb more than 1 streak. Evasion determines frequency of streak -> streak magnitude determines minimum hp -> fractional frequency determines minimum recovery rate We don't know what the average time step is nor how streaks are dealt with... but it's how I would do the analysis. If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
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I think we need a keystone that allows to pop health flasks preemptively, to get rid of that nasty reaction time.^^
Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? |
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after reading through this entire thread, it seems like you guys have decided on two main options for improving acrobatics.
1. Putting in %life nodes 2. Making the dodge chance additive. I'm assuming most people who look at acrobatics would associate it with Shadow. Having played an acrobatics shadow as one of my experiments, it seemed like the only way to play as an acrobatics melee was to stack life and be a claw wielder. Somehow, looking at the above two options I feel like that's not going to change the playstyle of acro characters much. Part of the reason (in my opinion) why acrobatics isn't popular at the moment is because if you take acro, you're either a bow user or a claw user. Having played acro claw shadow (and finding it extremely boring) it would be nice to be able to use acro in a melee build that didn't use claws. I've got a few ideas on how to make this keystone possibly playable for other melee builds but i'm not sure about the feasibility of these so I would appreciate your feedback. Mind you, my main objective here is not to make acrobatics OP, it's just to make it more appealing to other melee builds (other than claws). 1. I'm not sure if this mechanic would be implementable: but would it be possible to make it such that each time you get hit, you gain a frenzy charge? combined with the ranger's 4% evasion per frenzy charge node this could end up being a pretty fun/interesting build to play with because of the increased attack speed you get when hit (seems to be in line with the idea of being an acrobat, fast and lithe) as well as the increased %evasion to help you avoid the subsequent relevant attacks. it would possibly open up a few more ideas in terms of builds as well. 2. Instead of putting in life% nodes, what about putting in %life regen nodes instead? At the moment shadow has absolutely no life regen nodes. If acro had %life regen, it would be able to counteract the Chaos DoT of Blood Rage and allow me a bit of lifesteal to make use of other melee weapons as well. This isn't very mathematical or analytical i know. Just a bit of two cents from an avid shadow player Build of the Week 14 The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader Last edited by Invalesco#7360 on Oct 23, 2012, 3:42:52 PM
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" I agree with gaining frenzy charges when getting hit idea if it's coded as a keystone near to phase acrobatics but not being prerequisite of each other. This keystone also would have a nasty penality what is still unknown. It would be nice Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics fused into Phase Acrobatics and without any further node improving it nor after it. Putting bonus to leveled life% nodes or leveled %life regen is not good because it complicates how other nodes works and how would it be coded. Instead it would be better and also more simple if there is a group of life% nodes nearby with fitness node connected at group's end. |
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Invalesco, you missed a really important point, while also stating it up front: acrobatics is all about recovery.
recovery recovery recovery. Changing evasion scaling is aimed at recovery, not buffer. Defensive rating makes your flasks worth more. Buffer is a secondary concern (but still up there). Probably got buried with all my talk of EH and scaling, but in evasion land "EH" is only useful to tell you how much damage each point of recovery negates. And percent regen is worth a tiny fraction for acrobatics as it is for an armour wearer. Damage comes in huge chunks, so must healing. So we say: give acrobatics a significantly larger buffer (discipline and training could be worth around 150 hp when you pick it up right after acrobatics!), and then make our rating worth more. This directly multiplies the effect of any kind of recovery that comes in bursts (flasks, leech). If you think it's not enough, there's more that can be done. That's for sure. But I think a tiny tweak like these presented here will have a huge effect. -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Last edited by Zakaluka#1191 on Oct 23, 2012, 11:34:27 PM
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" Zeto, I am very interested in seeing this analysis, if you will do it. I 100% agree with the things you've said. Let's say any hit streak that has the POTENTIAL to kill you (if you evade/block zero of them, or enough crit!) has certain ODDS to kill you. How exactly does that work? How does evasion rating affect your odds of survival? With a shield? Without a shield? How many enemies can you allow to gain melee range on you in any given situation, while keeping your odds of critical failure to evade within reason? I'd be very interested in seeing it. As I've stated before, EH-analysis of evasion rating is only any good for placing a value on recovery against future damage. So your analysis would definitely tell a more detailed story. I'm a little burned on systems analysis for a while. So maybe you can take on this project :) -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Last edited by Zakaluka#1191 on Oct 23, 2012, 11:42:25 PM
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" I'm not sure if u got my point zakaluka. I'm just trying to make acrobatics more attractive from a player's point of view. Im not sure if most players like spamming flasks to survive. There's a reason why most viable shadow acros go for claws. That's because of the implicit life steal claws have as opposed to other melee weapons. If there was a %life regen node somewhere near shadow or near Acro, it would make it less expensive to run blood rage for instance as a dagger shadow, allowing them an avenue for life steal Build of the Week 14
The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader |
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Given Shadows are the Int/Dex class, I'd venture most Shadows don't take Acrobatics at all.
They got nice ES nodes. But everyone to his own, I guess. I don't expect a regen node, which on average is 0.4%, sometimes 0.8%, would help much with using Blood rage. Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? |
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