On ARPG economies from a game design perspective

Who ?


US and YOU! The T-Shirt Hunters!

Look how this guy had to buy a void battery for 13EX :O ( i remember when thet were : 5-8ex )






It's a friend, he will borrow some uniques and he is running out of time.
The void had a bo of 16EX :S


__


http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/525309 i wanna smash him with a glacial hammer
Anarchy/Onslaught T-Shirt Owner.
Trading Guide : http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/519890
Killing Vaal merc with (600 life) : http://is.gd/qsgV9P [Open Beta]
Let's be Crazy: http://is.gd/TxxLsS / Old Suggestion: http://is.gd/Jd09W0
<< God blesses those who bless themselves >>
Last edited by Inexium#6388 on Sep 20, 2013, 5:58:19 PM
The reason things are going up in terms of exalts is because the exalt has become devalued. Thunderfist was 6 exalts. Now it is 10.

BUT

Thunderfist was 6 exalts when exalt = 50 chaos

6x50 = 300 chaos

Thunderfist 10 now, exalt = 30 chaos

10 x 30 = 300 chaos

The actual "value" has not changed.

same for Void Battery.

Anarchy/Onslaught T shirt
Domination/Nemesis T shirt
Tempest/War Bands T shirt
What about shavronne's ?
Anarchy/Onslaught T-Shirt Owner.
Trading Guide : http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/519890
Killing Vaal merc with (600 life) : http://is.gd/qsgV9P [Open Beta]
Let's be Crazy: http://is.gd/TxxLsS / Old Suggestion: http://is.gd/Jd09W0
<< God blesses those who bless themselves >>
I like the write up, but brokerage is completely absent. It can be assumed it's not an issue, until 1 user makes it so.

There is users who completely skip the trade of items, and go straight to currency. The problem is, they are selling high and buying low. Since there is no broker to trade an Exalt for 30 chaos (or whatever market value may be), people have to use these currency brokers.

This game is designed well for farmers, but even better for pure currency traders. I'm less than 2 months in and I'm already seeing a swell in "Pump and Dump" style brokering.

If I'm holding a 100 dollar bill, I can't change that to 5 20's via a neutral party, but must rely on currency traders. Give it enough time, and people will figure out that the trade of currency is superior to items, and the problems of the real world will find a virtualized home here in PoE.
Added Section 5; it deals with RMT and black market activity.
"
Jined wrote:
Spoiler
I like the write up, but brokerage is completely absent. It can be assumed it's not an issue, until 1 user makes it so.
There is users who completely skip the trade of items, and go straight to currency. The problem is, they are selling high and buying low. Since there is no broker to trade an Exalt for 30 chaos (or whatever market value may be), people have to use these currency brokers.
Spoiler
This game is designed well for farmers, but even better for pure currency traders. I'm less than 2 months in and I'm already seeing a swell in "Pump and Dump" style brokering.

If I'm holding a 100 dollar bill, I can't change that to 5 20's via a neutral party, but must rely on currency traders. Give it enough time, and people will figure out that the trade of currency is superior to items, and the problems of the real world will find a virtualized home here in PoE.
Currency flipping isn't significantly different from item flipping, except that it tends to be less discrete (in the mathematical sense) and more continuous (again in the mathematical sense). There's still all sorts of checks, such as competition between currency brokers, which serve to keep the system from becoming too degenerate.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 20, 2013, 11:17:30 PM
OP that's a great write up. I was earlier thinking about how permanent leagues break down as they are inundated with wealth and items. The return on actually playing the game and finding loot is constantly diminishing.

My conclusion was that for leagues to function beyond their initialization replay value must be added. Either in the form of additional loot chasing or deeper competitive PvP. The itemization in POE is solid and small tweaks would dramatically extend the economic life of a league. I'd love to see a league with bind-on-equip for example or self-found.

POE has plenty of sinks for wealth (notably orb gambling) but almost no sinks for hand-me-down items, as a result the market is saturated with hand-me-downs. That in turn leads to an unfun item progression for all but the top tier players of a league, the casual player experience suffers most. Indeed, Diablo 3 famously exacerbated that problem with its auction house. Sidenote: removing the auction house from Diablo 3 won't fix anything, it'll push trading to disreputable third party sites and at best leave them with a problem similar to what POE is experiencing now.

So I suppose my question is, do you agree with my assessment of permanent leagues and the benefit a hand-me-down sink would provide?
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Yet another reason to make IIQ affect currency only.
"
Veta1991 wrote:
POE has plenty of sinks for wealth (notably orb gambling) but almost no sinks for hand-me-down items, as a result the market is saturated with hand-me-downs. That in turn leads to an unfun item progression for all but the top tier players of a league, the casual player experience suffers most. Indeed, Diablo 3 famously exacerbated that problem with its auction house.
Odd you didn't mention Hardcore or Onslaught. There actually is a version of this game which has item sinks for hand-me-down items.

Still, I think you have some good points for Standard and Anarchy; tradeable items do not leave the economy until or unless they become worthless, which is usually a result of superior tradeables saturating the economy because they don't leave the economy, and so on. The result is a continually inflating standard for what a "trash" item is, slowly destroying expected farming value/hour, which effects trading vs flipping balance, eventually leading to a surplus of flipping and a shortage of farming, which is bad for the economy.

Unfortunately, the only solution to this is to impose a "Hardcore Lite" death-based item sink into Standard. On the one hand, allowing players to choose which items will be sunk simply doesn't work; they will never voluntarily choose the items they're actually wearing or consider wearable, and only shit items will be sunk (this is why Blacksmith Salvage is a horrible mechanic in Diablo 3). On the other hand, let's face it, rules that destroy your gear if you break them are masochistic in an ARPG, and although allowing masochism by choice is just fine, enforcing it upon everyone is sadistic; good game design doesn't resort to such methods for increasing difficulty.

For Standard and Anarchy Leagues, I propose the following (enthusiastically for Anarchy, and somewhat reluctantly for Standard):
  • Allow Mirror of Kalandra to work on unique items and on gems. (This is relevant to the points below. Also: why not?)
  • Whenever a player dies, one of their items without the "mirrored" status, chosen randomly, gains the mirrored status. Gems and flasks count as worn items; a death-mirror on a socketed item has no effect on the gems in it, and a death-mirror on a gem has no effect on the item it's socketed in.
  • If a player dies wearing exclusively mirrored items, instead one of those items, chosen randomly, is permanently destroyed. If a socketed item is destroyed this way, gems in it are moved to the player's inventory; if the inventory is too full, gems are dropped on the ground. Note that, since gems and flasks count as items, it would take many deaths to reach this point.
  • Hardcore transfers to Standard are punished more severely. First, all mirrored items worn by the character are permanently destroyed; then, all non-mirrored worn items gain the mirrored status. Non-worn items (in the backpack) are unaffected.
This would have a minor effect on the occasional death, but have severe item penalties for very frequent deaths, and introduce a death-sink into the leagues which don't have them. I also added in something to make Hardcore deaths more meaningful (less ability to flip their old gear in Standard then do a cross-league trade), without utterly destroying their ability to continue progression as a Standard character.

The reason I'm a little reluctant to enforce such an item-sink on Standard is that I feel it should be the most casual option for PoE, and adding any form of item sink to it would definitely undermine that casual feeling. Still, death-sinks are a valuable tool to combat inflation, so I feel compelled to suggest something. I hope the proposal above is tame enough to be accepted by the Standard population; if this meant abolishing the XP penalty in exchange, I'd consider it a fair trade.
"
Veta1991 wrote:
Sidenote: removing the auction house from Diablo 3 won't fix anything, it'll push trading to disreputable third party sites and at best leave them with a problem similar to what POE is experiencing now.
I think the #1 problem Diablo 3 had was instantaneous trading (the Buyout feature), so saying it wouldn't fix anything is an exaggeration. However, I can agree with you that it won't be this magic cure-all, third-parties are going to have some influence, and D3 isn't out of the economic woods yet. A step in the right direction isn't the whole journey.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 21, 2013, 12:24:23 PM
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
I think the #1 problem Diablo 3 had was instantaneous trading (the Buyout feature), so saying it wouldn't fix anything is an exaggeration. However, I can agree with you that it won't be this magic cure-all, third-parties are going to have some influence, and D3 isn't out of the economic woods yet. A step in the right direction isn't the whole journey.


You are missing the most important part. The removal of the AHs is not a stand alone thing. It will be done with a complete new direction. Blizzard have realised that the aRPG genre has to change with modern communication, in order to get back closer to where it was.

Change, to remain unchanged as little as possible, at its core. Because the aRPGs we have nowadays are a long shot from the loot-finders they were.

The removal of the AHs will be complimented with more binding, more incentive to farm, less incentive to buy. Along with finder-tailored drops with stats that are directed towards the class that finds/is rewarded with.. them. More crafting that requires farming and more BiS items that cannot be bought.

a topical interview
Soulbound Items
[From chat: Soulbound / Bind on Pickup items, like the Account-Bound crafted items]
Travis: Soulbound is a touchy topic. I will say years and years and years of working on WoW, we kind of took it for granted, like it's just a foregone conclusion, that this is part of the game. Working on Diablo, seeing all the problems we have to deal with that's different from WoW -- because obviously they're different games but there's parallels to draw. I will say there's value in soulbound. I think it helps contribute to the sense of ownership that you earned something, because obviously you didn't buy it from some dude in China for $2. But there's degrees, and I think it's a possibility that soulbound could find it's way into the game in a larger sense than it has already. We've got some, we put in new crafted recipes that took soulbound reagents and created soulbound items. That was partly because we wanted to give players a reason to farm creatures in the game again, instead of expecting to buy everything off the Auction House. And it worked, it totally did everything we wanted it to do. I would say it worked because everything you found was soulbound and the product you made was soulbound. It's got it's strengths.

[2:09:50]
Do you think one of the bigger disadvantages is it eliminates trading, or at least diminishes it?
Travis: I think that is a legitimate concern. I think what you lose in the inability to trade things, is more than overshadowed by what you gain. I'm not saying that soulbound is always obviously the right choice. But I am saying I think the crafted recipes were only -- they got people just playing the game again, because there was something to do, and I couldn't just pay my way to victory. I have to go farm these Demonic Essences, I have to craft these items myself, and I can't just buy the end result off the Auction House. It got people farming Demonic Essences, and it got people crafting their items, and it got them showing their buddies "Look at this awesome thing I made, isn't that cool?", instead of saying "Look at what I bought for 2 billion gold on the Auction House." So it certainly has value, but you do lose out on the trading. Trading comes up all the time, any time we're talking about items or anytime we're talking about those crafting recipes, or legendary items, whatever the case is. When soulbound comes up as an idea, immediately someone is like, "But trading, trading is important!" And it's like, here's the thing: Is it important to be able to trade everything always, or is it more important to be able to feel a sense of pride in the things you're wearing? Because if you're allowed to buy everything you're wearing, and that's the best gear in the game, that's cool. But that's also a world where nobody cares about items on the ground because they bought it off an Auction House, or they traded it from their buddy, or whatever the case is.

The fantasy of trading, and the fun idea of trading, is like: I found items, I traded with my buddy, or maybe this guy and I bartered out a deal. But the difference between that, and what actually ends up happening with the Auction House or just any system where there's a completely fluid economy - it fights against the idea that your time is valuable. And it fights against the idea that the things you find are valuable, because they're not going to be. The fact that everything is tradeable, it kind of puts under a spotlight for a lot of people (and this isn't player psychology as much as general psychology) the more we make you realize you're not special, the less special you feel, right? Everyone will feel like they are smart and they make good decisions in their own right, and a lot of people do. But there are more people who are part of the general populace than part of the cream of the crop, the exception to the rule. And as soon as everything is tradeable, or as soon as your time can be directly valued against someone else's time, you realize your time has little value, and it's a crappy feeling. The trade-off is: do I want to be able to trade things, or do I want to actually find something that is good for me and I'm happy with.


You might find this interview to be exactly what I've been harping on about for months, what needs to happen with aRPGs today.
What's interesting, is, I've only just come across it.
http://diablo.somepage.com/news/1555-candid-chats-with-wyatt-cheng-and-travis-day#travis-soulbound
Casually casual.

Last edited by TheAnuhart#4741 on Sep 22, 2013, 5:20:52 AM
I am staunchly against account-bound in almost any form. As mentioned in the OP, I might tolerate account-bound orbs, because they're not worn gear, can be found anywhere, and could still be used to create tradeable items; however, I have deep reservations about such a proposal, because I believe trading is an important element of the game to be fostered, not given the finger. But I digress; in terms of anything along the lines of D3's Hellfire Rings, strongly opposed.

Why? I don't think it's right for an ARPG to force where you farm. You might reply, "Well if you want to farm an Auxium, you're going to have to be hitting areas where items drop at itemlevel 70 or higher." To which I retort: Yes, if I'm farming them... but that's a big "if."

Keeping all gear tradeable means that you could theoretically farm any area(s) in the game, using any build(s) you wish, to achieve your itemization objectives. You could get loads of currency simply running characters from 1 to 40 over and over again, provided you put the time in; that currency could then be used to trade for what you want.

That's not to say that an ARPG shouldn't encourage farming of certain areas, or use of good builds. It should, and Path of Exile does. But that's a world away from a hard barrier; it convinces you to tackle certain content with the promise of improved efficiency, not outright denial.

Account-bound systems, in contrast, diminish this player freedom. There are specific quests to accomplish, which not all builds would be capable of doing given X gear, and which not all players would find enjoyable.

All gear tradeable. Period. Fuck account-bound.

And fuck Diablo 3.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 22, 2013, 5:52:04 AM

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