On ARPG economies from a game design perspective

If you want orbs to be crafting material not currency then they should be more powerful when used for crafting than trading. What I'd suggest is each orb has a flag set when you first pick it up giving it multiple charges so that you can use it for crafting X number of times (with the value of X left as an exercise for the balance team). Once you trade that orb it only gives a single usage like how they currently work. Obviously once you've used one of the X number of charges the orb would have to become account bound, it would only make sense to allow trading of full orbs.

You forgot one thing: flippers depends on the lazy RMTers to b/o their overpriced items. It was so ridiculously easy to rip off noobs RMTers in lineage 2, the influence there was very obvious. I don't do that much anymore but I'm sure the same apply to PoE.

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Xendran wrote:

Wrong genre. You're looking for an action rpg, not an auction rpg like PoE.

Flippers are actually good for an action RPG, precisely because they provide a service to farmers (at a cost) which allows them to farm more continuously; it's when flipping dies off that the game starts to feel like an "auction RPG" for farmers, precisely because they now have to sell directly to customers themselves. You should read Section 1 of the OP.

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patlefort3 wrote:

You forgot one thing: flippers depends on the lazy RMTers to b/o their overpriced items. It was so ridiculously easy to rip off noobs RMTers in lineage 2, the influence there was very obvious. I don't do that much anymore but I'm sure the same apply to PoE.

I would hope flippers are not depending on an influx of RMT currency (and the spendthrift nature which accompanies it), but I'd be neglectful to pretend it isn't a potential problem.

Maybe I should write up a new section in the OP for my thoughts on RMT.

If I continue my analogy with my experience in Lineage 2, I was practically buying stuff from NPC merchant and selling them to players for 2-3x profits. No one can have that kind of money and be so ignorant other than using RMT. I think it would be really hard to profit from flipping without RMT because who else have enough currency to buy overpriced items *cough*30 ex for soul taker*cough*?

Here is an example of a flip with no rmt users :


On anarchy right now, a Thunderfist can go 10EX.

A friend of a friend bought 7+ Thunderfists ( i dont remember the number i think it was around 10 thunderfists ) for 8EX and sold them out all for 10EX.


14-20ex profit with normal players.

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ggnorekthx wrote:

So, I read through most of the thread... but man...

How about this:

We fight monsters, clear maps, win races and defeat bosses to acquire the items we want?

Sorry, wrong game I guess lol.

Yeah, it's amazingly bad design, but the devs probably read a lot of psych and econ books and managed to convince themselves that by creating this 'economy' it would add longevity and another element of player involvement.

But really, it's just a convoluted version of the D3 auction house, sans the functionality but with tonnes more frustration.

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Powertrip wrote:

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ggnorekthx wrote:

So, I read through most of the thread... but man...

How about this:

We fight monsters, clear maps, win races and defeat bosses to acquire the items we want?

Sorry, wrong game I guess lol.

Yeah, it's amazingly bad design, but the devs probably read a lot of psych and econ books and managed to convince themselves that by creating this 'economy' it would add longevity and another element of player involvement.

But really, it's just a convoluted version of the D3 auction house, sans the functionality but with tonnes more frustration.

Yup, start character, dress it to order, start another, dress it to order, repeat until (very soon) bored to tears with a dress a dolly shopping game. Then go looking for an aRPG to play (or as it would seem, for some, a card game).

Longevity, in the shortest sense possible.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Flippers are actually good for an action RPG, precisely because they provide a service to farmers (at a cost) which allows them to farm more continuously.

Am I the only one that finds this ironic? Are flippers not making trade too easy for farmers, and as you outline in your OP, is this not bad for the game?

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BloodReign wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Flippers are actually good for an action RPG, precisely because they provide a service to farmers (at a cost) which allows them to farm more continuously.

Am I the only one that finds this ironic? Are flippers not making trade too easy for farmers, and as you outline in your OP, is this not bad for the game?

Let me be more specific: easier in terms of time, but more expensive; flippers charge for their services in order to turn a profit. Flippers are essentially playing the "market simulator" game on behalf of the farmers.

Charging for services is important. From a farmer-to-farmer perspective, trading needs to be taxed, either directly or in opportunity cost (lost farming time) in order to prevent the game from devolving to a point where it's both smarter and faster to trade for every upgrade you get, rather than trying to farm for it. This destroys the gameplay experience for farmers.

You could, I suppose, try to enforce such a tax manually. However, that's problematic for two reasons.

First, it presupposes a universal currency for trading which is easily taxable (such as gold), which leads to universal measurement of wealth in said currency and makes wealth very deterministic.

Second, and most importantly, the proper amount of tax is widely variable between items — in general, the appropriate tax for big-ticket items is a rather small percentage, while the appropriate tax for low-mid gear (which should be rather easily self-found with any serious commitment) should be taxed at a much higher percentage. Flippers determine this tax organically using market forces, which is a great, low-maintenance solution to the problem. Attempts to establish a flat tax will always fail (such as D3's 15% auction house fee), and simply put it's too much work with too much risk of failure for the game designers to try to figure out what the appropriate tax for each trade is, even if such a task is strictly speaking possible.

This last point is the real value of flippers from a game design perspective. By allowing players to play an economic subgame instead of the game you're actually designing, they function as organic regulators to keep the experience ideal for your actual players. Like I said earlier, it's a symbiosis. Thus, the trick from a game design perspective is not to jump through hoops to try to oust them from the environment, but to set up mechanics which enhance the symbiotic relationship, steering behavior for both farmers and flippers towards desired goals.

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Inexium wrote:

Here is an example of a flip with no rmt users :


On anarchy right now, a Thunderfist can go 10EX.

A friend of a friend bought 7+ Thunderfists ( i dont remember the number i think it was around 10 thunderfists ) for 8EX and sold them out all for 10EX.


14-20ex profit with normal players.

How did he get enough ex to buy 7-10 thunderfists? He must have been flipping for a while and you don't really know if the buyers aren't using RMT. Also, who the hell is mad enough to pay 10 ex for thunderfist? Some items keep going up in price and people still buy no problem?