To all legit players

History Revisited, Staying together and splitting up mechanics, from my philosophical point of view:

I was a big hardcore classic ladder Diablo II fan. I spent most of my time doing chaos sanctuary runs. My favorite era, in which to do chaos sanctuary runs was 1.09.

Here is the breakdown of chaos runs on hardcore classic Diablo II in 1.09 and 1.10 (There is an explanation of what chaos runs were at the bottom of this post for anyone who wants to take a trip back down memory lane or never played diablo II)

A.)1.09:

When experience was shared area/group wide, it was typical for players to form 8 player parties (this was the max in D2) once inside the chaos sanctuary they would split up into 3 sub teams divided as they saw fit.

For example two groups of 3 players and one group of 2 players. Each group would go take on their respective seal boss.

This allowed the entire group to benefit from spawning diablo faster from splitting up while still enjoying all the shared exp from the mobs they cleared while split up.

This was a riskier style of play than just staying together as a full group, but the reward was faster runs and thus more experience over time.

This also required a nominal amount of organization and coordination. If you weren't paying attention and accidentally went to a seal you weren't assigned to go to you would potentially slow the whole team down.

This level of coordination and strategy isn't really high, nothing compared to say a standard WoW boss fight, but it was a whole lot more interesting than just running around as a group face rolling stuff.


B.) 1.10:

The exp system is changed to now only allow exp to be shared by players within a close area. As a result chaos runs turn into runs were all 8 players just stay together and face roll the seals together.

No strategy, no organization, no extra risk.

While the changes to the party system in 1.10 may have prevented leechers from benefitting by getting exp from just hanging in a corner and leeching, the changes also promoted very safe, very boring, follow the leader group play.



Conclusion:

I.) I believe there is a lot of very fertile design space out there for ARPGs based on the chaos sanctuary model:

Areas where a team or a single player could just do a linear progression through the area, but an organized team could split up and accomplish goals in sub-teams and do something faster, but at a greater risk.

I believe these kinds of design are perfect for end game ARPG content because it introduces enough strategy to keep things interesting, but isn't so complex as to scare people off, and is still a solo-able area just at a slower speed.

II.) I like the idea of groups being able to share experience across an entire area, because it preserves this design space for future end game use.

However, there is still the issue of the in the corner leecher to deal with, I'm sure though, while difficult, an optimal solution could be thought of that could keep area wide partying while also making sure the corner leecher does not profit.

I am also equally sure...that such an ideal solution is not an easy one to think up or implement....

I'll let any of you who had the patience to read through all of that consider the implications of my thoughts....or disregard as you see fit.



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chaos runs:

1.) The objective of "CS" runs (chaos sanctuary runs) was to kill diablo. Back in Diablo II classic, there were no act 5 monsters.

As a result the highest level monster and thus a relevant source of exp for high level players was diablo himself.

2.) To kill Diablo players had to travel to the chaos sanctuary. There they would have to activate 5 seals, located in 3 seperate but relatively near-by areas.


3.) 3 of the 5 seals, when activated, would spawn a group of monsters lead by a mini-boss. Once all 5 seals were activated and all 3 mini-bosses were defeated all remaining monsters in the chaos sanctuary would die (players did not get experience for the deaths of the monsters who died due to this mechanic), the chaos sanctuary would then begin to shake and diablo would spawn.
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DDT you misunderstood my idea. I don't change anything with the XP or HP values. All I do is cap the maximum XP any player can get at 1 + 15% per additional player in area.

Example:

Mob solo has 100XP 100HP.

2 even level players killing the mob together would get 165XP/2=82.5XP each for killing 150HP mob.

Now the 2 players split. Each player has to kill mobs with 150HP for 115XP instead of the 165XP they would get under the current system.

DDT, please read the rest of the 10 pages before. I actually posted not long after my original posting on teh XP formula, a more fleshed out version where I dealt with the XP as well. I included in that post my thoughts on damage output from a party and damage taking from a party to come up with very different HP modifier than the current one. I also suggested boosting monster damage.

I am sorry that I assumed you read ALL my posts before making any responses.

It seems those who have answered whether parties should grant extra XP or not, shouldn't.

Great Post TEBird. brings adifferent perspective on XP sharing in groups when there are multiple objectives in the one instance.

From memory, there aren't any similar scenarious in POE at the moment. It could change, would be cool if it did :)

"

NotThat wrote:

DDT you misunderstood my idea. I don't change anything with the XP or HP values. All I do is cap the maximum XP any player can get at 1 + 15% per additional player in area.

Example:

Mob solo has 100XP 100HP.

2 even level players killing the mob together would get 165XP/2=82.5XP each for killing 150HP mob.

Now the 2 players split. Each player has to kill mobs with 150HP for 115XP instead of the 165XP they would get under the current system.

You are right I did misunderstand. Even though oddly enough it would still be a lot less exp than currently.

115exp/150hp killing solo in a 2 man zone. Would still give .76exp/hp per mob, instead of the current 1.1exp/hp. And even less than the duo group exp. .825 exp/hp if both people were there and killing.

I think it shows a slight problem when you cant kill a mob solo and get LESS exp, than if you were in a group killing it. (In the same zone party), I dont see why it wouldnt be at least equal amount. But like I said it would force/encourage people to stay together which isnt really a bad thing.

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StillSingle wrote:

DDT, please read the rest of the 10 pages before. I actually posted not long after my original posting on teh XP formula, a more fleshed out version where I dealt with the XP as well. I included in that post my thoughts on damage output from a party and damage taking from a party to come up with very different HP modifier than the current one. I also suggested boosting monster damage.

I am sorry that I assumed you read ALL my posts before making any responses.

It seems those who have answered whether parties should grant extra XP or not, shouldn't.

I did read the 10 pages before, and I've shown each and every time how your formula adds exp (a lot of exp) to the mix for being in a party vs being solo.

I've replied to each formula you posted, so you want to repost your formula again, I will gladly show you AGAIN, why/how it does this.


FYI boosting monster damage, would be the death of any tank in a group. Its a bad idea, and does NOT promote grouping that would make balanced groups. Only people that would group would be summoners.

DDT. in my post regarding HP changes and mob damage changes I actually listed a 100% of base HP per player after the first. I also listed a 5% increase in damage for mobs after the first player.

You are right, this would mean that XP/HP ratio would be higher than it is currently. However, the playerdmg/HP ratio will actually be lower (assuming non boosting party).

Iassume the XP earned figure is the amount a player actually receives (not the amount of XP the group gets for killing a mob).

for 2 person party:
Current PlayerDmg/MonsterHP ratio = 2/1.5 = 1.333333
From your post(and memory, so it may not be perfect)
current XP/HP ratio = .8 ish

for 6 person party:
Current Player DmG/MonsterHP ratio = 6/3.5 = 1.7143
current XP/HP ratio = .8 ish (I think, I didn't do the sums here)

My suggestion would look like:

2 player party
Suggested PlayerDmg/MonsterHP = 2/2 = 1
XP/HP ratio = 1/2 = .5

6 player party
Suggested PlayerDmg/MonsterHP = 6/6 = 1
XP/HP ratio = 1/6 = .166666

Which suggests my formulae isn't that good. To be a good formula, it would need to hold both the Dmg/Hp ratio constant AND the XP/HP ratio constant.

WAIT: just realised that really you are looking at XP speed. Neither of the ratios above take into account the speed of XP earned:

2 player party:
time to kill = HP/playerDMG = 2/2 = 1
XP Speed = XPtotal*XPRatio / timetokill = 2*.5/1 = 1

6 player party:
time to kill = 6/6 = 1
XP Speed = 6*.166666666/1 = 1

Peoples, please check that I got the formulae right for XP speed. Also, what does the current XP speed come out at?

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MrDDT wrote:

FYI boosting monster damage, would be the death of any tank in a group. Its a bad idea, and does NOT promote grouping that would make balanced groups. Only people that would group would be summoners.

I was only talking from my experience. When I group it always seems the mob damage gets spread around much more. What are other people's experiences in this?

"

StillSingle wrote:

for 2 person party:
Current PlayerDmg/MonsterHP ratio = 2/1.5 = 1.333333
From your post(and memory, so it may not be perfect)
current XP/HP ratio = .8 ish

Please explain what "playerdmg" means?

If you take your basic info you listed on what you wanted changed, its really a nerf to party exp.

+100% EXP (instead of +65%)
+100% HP (Instead of +50%)
+5% damage (no idea how to factor this in)


Before solo, a 100 HP mob would give. 100 exp (baseline)
Now solo, a 100 HP mob would give 100 exp (baseline)

Before, +1 person, each person would get 82.5 exp, and only have to do 75Hp damage. This means its 1.1exp per HP
Now, +1 person, each person would get 100exp, and have to do 100 HP damage. This means its 1.0exp per HP

Before, +5 person, each person would get 70.8exp, and have to do 58.3HP. This means its 1.20exp per HP.
Now, +5 person, each person would get 100 exp, and have to do 100HP. This means its 1.0 exp per HP.


All the same solo (not counting the +5% damage).

Which is a large nerf to the current party exp rates.

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StillSingle wrote:

"

MrDDT wrote:

FYI boosting monster damage, would be the death of any tank in a group. Its a bad idea, and does NOT promote grouping that would make balanced groups. Only people that would group would be summoners.

I was only talking from my experience. When I group it always seems the mob damage gets spread around much more. What are other people's experiences in this?

Increasing monster damage, hurts tank builds more than anyone else. Armor is greatly effected by +% damage mods on monsters.