The Current Fire Trap / Traps Update: Give +1 Additional Trap (4) to 'Use' for Trappers by Default

(double submission)

Because i think it is a good idea that you can build a character to be a trapper with its passive build. I think a node fits very well.

Now, i will compare fireball and firetrap, because it matters what the alternatives are. I have done very extensive testing on fireball, and the much safer, non-reflected firetrap simply blows it out of the water because its so massively more powerful on fireballs key strengths.

The only time fireball may be better is very end game, around lvl 83+, with insane gear and very high crit rate.

It is still my belief that firetrap should be more about the dot portion than the instant hit. For firetrap you cannot rely on getting a crit on all packs, like you can with fireball, so therefore you have to build around it killing with the base damage in most cases. That damage might as well be dot damage, because then it does not overrule the power of fireball, but is a different spell. People give firetrap chance to ignite so that it individually procs ignite in it's huge area which then uses its base non-crit damage to kill everything with a damage over time effect, but in the end that's just because it is not designed to use it's key strength in the actual skill.

The feedback im getting with my fireball build on firetrap is always that is blows fireball out of the water until very late game due to having the same key strengths, a gigantic area and 3 times as much damage. I know firetrapper's don't like to talk about it but that skill hurts too much with the instant damage, which is why they like it - it's overpowered.

Sorry, man, but the skill was really OP, I levelled an equilibrium ignite-focused Fireball/
Fire Trap witch and ended up not using fireball at all, and I had only one trap gem at that (because I don't do cheesy exploits). It trumped fireball in every aspect, direct damage, ignite potential, cumulative DoT, imperviousness to reflect, mana efficiency...
And that was in closed beta when we still didn't have Burn damage support.

Ok, they lowered direct damage, I say do it again, shit, I'd remove the thing completely if it was up to me. I use the thing on almost all of my fire builds and I don't like the way I've been using it at all. With recent patch devs showed what kind of role do they want FT to have and I totally agree, in fact they should go all-out on that idea, or as the little witchie would say it - no half-measures, thank you.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Because i think it is a good idea that you can build a character to be a trapper with its passive build. I think a node fits very well.

Because you think adding such a trap node is a good idea for Trappers, which in turn wastes skill points that can be put into life nodes. What happened to knowing? That's what you get for thinking . . . It would absolutely ruin my entire build (and the builds of other Trappers) if I were to have to exhaust skill points just to get this trap node. I am already coming up short on skill points for the best Skill Tree path I had to take when it comes to life.

Like I said, it would be a wasteful node to get because trappers need all the life they can get. Trappers are not known to be tanks like in other builds requiring different gear. A real Fire Trapper (especially if you're a Shadow like me going all-out ninja style,) maneuvers the battlefield like a ninja would aka not being stupid by running into a pack of high-level enemies to get yourself killed.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Now, i will compare fireball and firetrap, because it matters what the alternatives are. I have done very extensive testing on fireball, and the much safer, non-reflected firetrap simply blows it out of the water because its so massively more powerful on fireballs key strengths.

If any valid point you made thus far that's 100% true, it is that Fireball is affected by reflect whereas Fire Trap is not. However, that's not what we're comparing here. We are comparing DPS effectiveness. I still argue and know Fireball still does more consistent damage. For example, if there was an area in PoE with dummy units to hit for testing your build, yet one of those dummies is a damage tester (calculating your damage,) Fireball would deal more damage in the end because every time all your Fire Traps run out, during that 3 second recharge, Fireball will have already dished out 3 waves of damage, throwing out 3 fireballs at once per use.

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Crackmonster wrote:

The only time fireball may be better is very end game, around lvl 83+, with insane gear and very high crit rate.

No, Fireball is damn good all around, whether you're in a high-level area or not. I have used it long enough to know. To example, the same comparison(s) can be made between Fireball and Fire Trap even if both were at level 10 and you wore the best gear while using both these level 10 skill gems. The point, again, is Fire Traps run out while Fireballs do not (unless you got crap for mana.)

The only reason I don't use Fireball is because my personal preference leans more toward skill gems that aren't trigger-happy opposed to skill gems (like Fireball) that are.

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Crackmonster wrote:

It is still my belief that Fire Trap should be more about the dot portion than the instant hit. For Fire Trap you cannot rely on getting a crit on all packs, like you can with fireball, so therefore you have to build around it killing with the base damage in most cases. That damage might as well be dot damage, because then it does not overrule the power of fireball, but is a different spell. People give Fire Trap chance to ignite so that it individually procs ignite in it's huge area which then uses its base non-crit damage to kill everything with a damage over time effect, but in the end that's just because it is not designed to use it's key strength in the actual skill.

The feedback im getting with my fireball build on Fire Trap is always that is blows fireball out of the water until very late game due to having the same key strengths, a gigantic area and 3 times as much damage. I know Fire Trapper's don't like to talk about it but that skill hurts too much with the instant damage, which is why they like it - it's overpowered.

You're over exaggerating a bit. There is no 'instant' anything on Fire Trap's hit damage. There is still a delay time from the moment your character throws the traps, and the moment the traps hit the ground. Let's also not forget that Fire Traps do not always activate where they are thrown. Furthermore, enemies, especially end-game enemies, easily move out of Fire Trap's burning ground.

The DoT alone is not enough for end-game. If there was no 'Kaboom! effect' to Fire Traps, they wouldn't be Fire Traps. In order for there to be fire there has to be an ignition of some sort. What you're saying is when Fire Traps are placed on the ground, they should magically just start burning the ground without any nuke effect. Concept-wise, it sounds quite backwards to me for Fire Traps to work like that.

Conclusively (I can say the same,) I know Fireballers don't like to talk about these things, but these are things that hold true unless proved otherwise. IF I have to provide you with all the arithmetic, I will, but I want to see your numbers as well. Hopefully you understand the things I pointed out so I don't have to waste my time. Meanwhile, I do understand where you're coming from but only in that the only real valid point you've made is Fireball is affected by reflect whereas Fire Trap is not.

However, I still know (not think) Fireball deals more damage to multiple enemies (not just one) than Fire Trap. Fireball can also be linked with Area of Effect.

According to PoE's Wiki http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Area_of_effect it says, "Fireball is also a Projectile spell. Upon impact, Fireball deals a small Area of Effect (explosion) around the impact point."

That explosion impact point on Fireball then becomes more apparent if linked with a good Area of Effect support gem.

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

Conclusively (I can say the same,) I know Fireballers don't like to talk about these things, but these are things that hold true unless proved otherwise. IF I have to provide you with all the arithmetic, I will, but I want to see your numbers as well. Hopefully you understand the things I pointed out so I don't have to waste my time. Meanwhile, I do understand where you're coming from but only in that the only real valid point you've made is Fireball is affected by reflect whereas Fire Trap is not.

However, I still know (not think) Fireball deals more damage to multiple enemies (not just one) than Fire Trap. Fireball can also be linked with Area of Effect.

According to PoE's Wiki http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Area_of_effect it says, "Fireball is also a Projectile spell. Upon impact, Fireball deals a small Area of Effect (explosion) around the impact point."

That explosion impact point on Fireball then becomes more apparent if linked with a good Area of Effect support gem.

I usually trust numbers and I agree they go in favor of fireball but in this case they don't say it all, I did have both skills on my bar and only used fireball very rarely. Positioning was the problem, fireball pretty much requires you to stand still in order to dish out that constant stream of damage. I did play a witch but without summons so you can guess standing still can be a problem there. Trap didn't have that problem, throw one, dodge a bit, throw another, dodge a bit, it's much safer and still does comparable damage.

You can play fireball for burn too, slap conc to make one big hit, go crit and use proliferation to spread the good burn... I mean word. But fire trap can play that game too and incomparably better to boot. You can slap AoE on fireball, but base AoE being so miniscule it won't get far, I estimate the radius to 5 or 6, even with radical AoE investment it won't catch up to melee splash, not to mention some other spells.

Trappers, since they are not tanks, have extra points they can allocate to reach the nodes that fit them - trap nodes, while other builds that must stand in the line of fire has to use more points for defense.

Nothing special to it it's very straightforward like building other characters, you pick what passive improvements you want your character to have to match your build, and if you want to reach that +1 trap node because it is good, then you do it.

And no are not comparing dps potential in a non-stop fight lasting hours. We are comparing actual usage and actual strengths of real gameplay. It outcompetes fireball by a large margin on so many of fireballs core strenths. There is not need to conjure up a hypothetical situation to match what you wish was the case, i have tested fireball extensively and i find most people in my fireball guide tell me the same conclusions about firetrap as i have had to accept despite my personal bias towards fireball.

I did not say fireball was not good, but it is only very late game that it can potentially become better than firetrap, due to being able to expect a crit at every single pack. Still, at most times and in most situations, firetrap is much more powerful, even with non-crit ignites its more then enough to finish off entire packs in one go, where noncrit fireball is a pure joke.

There is plenty of instant damage. I think you know what i mean too, i refer to the instantly delivered damage upon explosion as opposed to the damage over time component.

I am saying that firetraps should give a little boom followed by a massive burn. Not a gigantic nuclear blasts of enormous area which is the followed by a barely tickeling dot.

Your proposed points make no sense, becaues no one in their right minds would link a fireball with increased area of effect unless boosting some very low level content or something weird, and even with that unlikely gem firetrap is just much more powerful on yet another key aspect of fireball (inate aoe impact).

Also you entirely neglect my main point. I do not care that fireball is reflected and trap is not. The entire point is that Firetrap woops fireball on nearly all fireballs key strengths, it makes fireball absolete until very late endgame. You can deny this very simple point all you want, but it has been observed by myself and others, every now and then i get the reply of someone who decided to skip fireball entirely in the optimized fireball build because firetrap simply was better in all aspects. That simple.

Now that you made me think i have a better change for you. They should reduce the instant damage area a great deal, and make the dot area even bigger, while at the same time reducing instant damage by 60%, and increasing the dot damage by 400%. It would solve all your issues, now how would you like that?

First, pardon me for the late reply.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Trappers, since they are not tanks, have extra points they can allocate to reach the nodes that fit them - trap nodes, while other builds that must stand in the line of fire has to use more points for defense.

Nothing special to it it's very straightforward like building other characters, you pick what passive improvements you want your character to have to match your build, and if you want to reach that +1 trap node because it is good, then you do it.

All this is so far is a back and forth 'I know better than you' argument, therefore, we will never agree.

Of course we pick what nodes we want, and if we don't want them, don't pick them. You still try to avoid the fact that it would be a waste of passives just for that +1 trap use. I cannot stress it enough on how a +1 trap use by default is much better so that there is still room for trappers to invest in defense-based nodes.

Like I said, if I were to minus anything from my build right now just to get the new trap node you speak of, my defense OR my damage would be lacking. My build cannot afford wasting passives just to get to +1 trap use node on the Skill Tree.

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Crackmonster wrote:

And no are not comparing dps potential in a non-stop fight lasting hours. We are comparing actual usage and actual strengths of real gameplay. It outcompetes fireball by a large margin on so many of fireballs core strenths. There is not need to conjure up a hypothetical situation to match what you wish was the case, i have tested fireball extensively and i find most people in my fireball guide tell me the same conclusions about firetrap as i have had to accept despite my personal bias towards fireball.

There is no hypothetical about anything, it's facts. Since the goal in-game is to get our traps to level 20, a level 20 Fireball is greater than Firetrap if used right and linked with the right support gems. Everyone's game experience varies, and so do skill trees. I can guarantee your setup is nowhere near what my setup is.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I did not say fireball was not good, but it is only very late game that it can potentially become better than firetrap, due to being able to expect a crit at every single pack. Still, at most times and in most situations, firetrap is much more powerful, even with non-crit ignites its more then enough to finish off entire packs in one go, where noncrit fireball is a pure joke.

Isn't late-game what we are ultimately comparing between Fireball and Firetrap, level-wise and DPS-wise? Come on.

Now you're saying most times and in most situations Fire Trap is more powerful. How can you, in a sense, betray your own viewpoint when you're clearly arguing Fire Trap is more powerful than Fireball no matter what?

Your use of words gives your uncertainty away. You either know Fire Trap is more powerful than Fireball, or you don't. Clearly you don't, and if I may add, you probably don't use Fireball right in that you're probably a terrible aim, supporting it wrong, or whatever the reason is you're not getting the results I get when using Fireball vs. Firetrap.

To reiterate, I only use Firetrap because I find trigger-happy skills like Fireball to be boring after a while. What's your excuse (call it what you will) for using Fireball IF Fire Trap is SO much better to you? In case I may have forgotten, I want to hear your excuse again.

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Crackmonster wrote:

There is plenty of instant damage. I think you know what i mean too, i refer to the instantly delivered damage upon explosion as opposed to the damage over time component.

Really? How funny it is I disagree with you, again. Let's not fool ourselves in that you know much as I do that Fireball hits an enemy just as fast as Fire Trap, and deals the damage just as fast, be it instant (as you put it, which is wrong) or progressively in that there is a slight delay between trap throwing or projectile attacking.

Furthermore and technically, the DoT on Fire Trap is not instant either (as you put it) because 1. It doesn't trigger on enemies until the trap has been put down on the ground and 2. the DoT is only as good as the enemies that STAY in the burning ground. In late-game, enemies, especially bosses, tend to move around a lot out of the burning ground in which the full damage from DoT is not dealt.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I am saying that firetraps should give a little boom followed by a massive burn. Not a gigantic nuclear blasts of enormous area which is the followed by a barely tickeling dot.

Let's not exaggerate, again. The Kaboom! on Fire Trap is not so enormously epic when it could be so much bigger. For lack of better way of putting it, the explosion animation from Fire Trap and its radius is a joke.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Your proposed points make no sense, becaues no one in their right minds would link a fireball with increased area of effect unless boosting some very low level content or something weird, and even with that unlikely gem firetrap is just much more powerful on yet another key aspect of fireball (inate aoe impact).

Just because I don't follow the rules of the norm, does not mean I am in my wrong mind. How do you know Area of Effect is ineffective when linked with Fireball? You don't, quite possibly because you never try anything new and believe everything you read in guides to be 100% true. All you're doing is relying on faith alone in that you're right about the ineffectiveness of AoE linked with Fireball instead of trying it out yourself.

Regardless of what you claim in knowing so much, what you do not know is that AoE is very effective with Fireball, especially when shooting out multiple projectiles per cast at mobs.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Also you entirely neglect my main point. I do not care that fireball is reflected and trap is not.

Really? Then why include it in one of your replies to support your argument if it wasn't an important note to make?

Let me quote you:

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Crackmonster wrote:

I have done very extensive testing on fireball, and the much safer, non-reflected firetrap simply blows it out of the water because its so massively more powerful on fireballs key strengths.

I'm listening . . .

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Crackmonster wrote:

The entire point is that Firetrap woops fireball on nearly all fireballs key strengths, it makes fireball absolete until very late endgame.

I know this is what you're saying. You also cannot quote me I said 'reflect' when it comes to Fireball and Firetrap was the main point of your argument. What I did say was that if any point you made about Firetrap vs. Fireball that was 100% correct, it is that Fire Trap is not affected by reflect whereas Fireball is affected by reflect. Even though I agreed with your point, I then went on to say it was pointless to include 'reflect' in your reply because it's off topic.

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Crackmonster wrote:

You can deny this very simple point all you want, but it has been observed by myself and others, every now and then i get the reply of someone who decided to skip fireball entirely in the optimized fireball build because firetrap simply was better in all aspects. That simple.

There is a difference between denying things and disproving things. I disprove, and I don't agree with 99% of what you're saying and what you claim, notably because I have actually tried and know the effectiveness of certain unlikely (and likely) support gems with fireball, whereas you just rule it out as insane thinking. How about try certain things yourself, then you can me crazy if you don't get the same results.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Now that you made me think i have a better change for you. They should reduce the instant damage area a great deal, and make the dot area even bigger, while at the same time reducing instant damage by 60%, and increasing the dot damage by 400%. It would solve all your issues, now how would you like that?

How about no. What you seem to be saying is for some of the nuke damage to be taken away from Fire Trap and tack it onto the DoT instead, which in turn is close to the same difference damage-wise.

You keep throwing the term instant around like a child does a ball bouncing around the walls of a hall. What you call instant nuke damage on Fire Trap triggers at the same time as its DoT. Therefore, making the nuke damage weaker than the DoT, vice versa, does not fix the problem.

The simple fix is to reduce the -20% damage penalty on Fire Traps down to 5-10%. There is no need to sacrifice the nuke damage for more DoT (vice versa) when the outcome is going to be close to the same thing.

i use myself fireball as a trap with gmp

all the balls are casted in front of the monsters, cannot miss

+1 to this thread.
as a pure trapper i say this.
it is annoying when u are facing rare mobs/unique mobs and all ur traps are on cd so u just wait to refresh it. cause traps dont behave like fireball where u can simple target and spam the shit of it.not to mention in thight spaces the aiming with multipletraps is retarded and when you encounter fast mobs you must bait them to ur traps...and i am not talking docks.. i mean high lvl maps.

and yeah i have a fireball build witch and despite what some think that the damage of firetrap is OP my fireball witch clears more easyly and faster. cause traper can not sustain is so called OP damage as u might think so is big minus in dps.

Sorry, I didn't read much of the thread, I just wanted to put my two cents in on this point...

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

2. Give players who use traps (by default) at least 1 additional trap we can use (4 traps total)

OR reduce the duration traps recharge by a 1/2 second (3 ½ seconds instead of 4 seconds)

The above suggestion(s) would apply to all traps, including but not limited to, Fire Traps.

Note: While there is a trap node that allows one additional trap to be placed on the ground, that is not the same as being able to use an additional trap.

I don't feel this is at all necessary. If anything these should either be passives or bonuses on uniques. The default setup is pretty much perfect as is.