Four Points of Flask Feedback

I believe that life flasks (and to a lesser extent hybrid flasks) should be tuned such that players have to carefully consider whether they want one or two, and three would be seen as definite overkill. I'd like to see a lot of life characters doing endgame with life + 4 utility flasks, which would encourage more use of elemental flasks as well as completely different, new flask combinations.

More charges on life flasks would accomplish that goal.

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Autocthon wrote:

More charges on life flasks would accomplish that goal.

I was thinking more along the lines of: Divine Life Flask, ilvl 63, 1050 life over 7 seconds, 40 max charges, 10 consumption. But you're right: also +8 max charges to Sacred/Hallowed, and +4 max charges to Grand/Giant/Colossal.

Going to add a little bit on life flasks to the OP under point #3.

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Edit: Also added section 4, Boozing it Up.

The best way to make life and mana flasks more relevant is to make it so their effects don't end when you get to full health, but continue for the full duration.

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Vipermagi wrote:

So instead of using them when you need them, you just bash them the moment they recharge and get all of their effects at the same time, all the time? Sounds like a plan.

Hallowed Life Flasks last 8 seconds, and you get 3 uses right off the bat. With a Saturated mod, it lasts 8 * 1.33 = 10.64 seconds. At three flasks, the moment you start a map you have 90 seconds of Curse Immunity, Move Speed and Increased Armour (or whatever else you pick for suffixes). Every 10 Flask Charges gets you another 10 seconds: easy to keep that going for ages.

A plan.

What you mean to say is that every 10 Flask Charges is 30 seconds.

Because last I checked +Charge on kill is per flask.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

1. Diablo 3, Discipline and Untapped Design Space
2. Thawing out some Sapphire Flasks
3. One Size Does Not Fit All
4. Boozing it up

1. There is certainly potential for more flask effects, but I like for them to stay general purpose because the unique thing about a flask is that it's available to every build. Basically the same kinds of things that would make sense to get from an aura. Basic buffs, healing, and things of that nature make sense for flasks.

It can make sense a few times like Freeze Mine where the skill design is too narrow, or maybe even like Searing Bond where the skill isn't effected by enough support gems to bother making it a whole gem. But designing them for specific builds seems to be at odds with what flasks are; might as well just make those things skills. I mentioned skills that could have gone the other direction into flasks to show just how close the two concepts are. If it's going to be something cool and interesting then why not make it a skill?

2. There are enough elemental effects to justify more than 1 kind of elemental flask, I'll agree that far. But I don't think all the various effects for one element should all be shoehorned into the resist flasks. Add a Lapis Flask which cures from Freeze (maybe immunity to freeze during its effect?) and adds a chill effect to your attacks instead of changing the Sapphire Flask.

3. It's true that one size doesn't fit all, but damn if I don't want it to. The thing I would like to highlight here is the progression of life and mana flasks.
Here is a chart showing the healing rate for Life Flasks:
Small_____10.0
Medium____15.4
Large_____22.9
Greater___42.9
Grand_____63.3
Giant_____75.0
Colossal__100.0
Sacred____130.0
Hallowed__120.0
There are big jumps are from Small to Medium and Large to Greater. It is notable that Sacred Flasks actually heal the fastest, although they are not the highest level. From Colossal (L37) to Hallowed (L53) the increase is minimal. It is fair to conclude the top Life Flask is still balanced for mid Cruel. The purpose of this chart was to show that getting progression right is not easy.

Now the for Mana Flasks, I'm going to look at a different metric because recovery rate is not as important as it is for life. Total "mana" per flask:
Small_____171
Medium____225
Large_____278
Greater___240
Grand_____480
Giant_____600
Colossal__680
Sacred____1312
Hallowed__1100
Once again, Sacred outranks Hallowed. The progression is smoother but the anomalies are greater. Greater Flasks actually store less total mana than their predecessor due to lower max charges. If this chart showed recovery rates like the previous one it would actually look very smooth, so what is the right perspective? Once again, getting progression right is hard. But the greater concern on mana flasks is what is the best way to look at the progression.

My last point on Health and Mana progression is something not shown in the charts, but I think racers will be aware of it: and that is Mana flask progression just isn't that important. Health flasks may need 9 tiers but Mana flasks do not. Witch is the only class that gains Mana passives in the first few tiers of Mana flasks. The first 3 flask tiers are available to all classes despite only being relevant to 1 of them. Even when the race is over I still don't find the top tier flasks to be useful because Mana flask recovery becomes much larger than the pool unless you get Eldritch Battery. Mana flask progression could probably be collapsed to half as many tiers. The point here is that when there is a progression, it should be relevant to players.

Bringing this back to the Granite Flask example:
-Getting progression right is hard
-Orienting progressing in the correct fashion is a complex challenge
-To be worth the challenge of handling the above, that progression needs to be relevant to lots of players

Granite Flasks only interact with 1 out of 3 armor types. So it's not relevant to 2/3 of players unless it's really good. If it's really good then what is the progression doing- making it less good? But it needs to be good to be worth the progression. It's a Catch 22 if you try to apply progression. I like them being just 1 tier because they are specialized to just 1 armor type. Sure, it's powerful enough to make that armor type relevant to everyone, but that's actually good. That means it was successfully designed as a flask for everyone to use, just the way I like it. If the flask is specialized for just one group then I would argue it should be a skill instead (usually), and if it can't cut it as a skill then just as an aura or passive node/keystone.

4. Liquor Flask is interesting, the only issue I have with it is it feels like it is crossing a threshold. It is the ultimate open-ended flask-- any other flask needs to excel at it's own function to compete. If every flask excels at its own special function, and one flask excels at combining the magic mods, the interplay between magic mods and special functions is not so dynamic anymore. Whatever magic mods end up being the "strongest" combo on the liquor flask, why not just make that another specialized flask instead? It might not work out this way, but its certainly a risk.

You missed the fifth point about flasks that needs to change: only the people getting kills in a party are getting flask charges. Culling strikers empty everyone else's flasks and keep theirs permanently maxed out.

I like the four suggestions in the OP. Overall, the flask system is in its infancy. There was a huge step from health/mana only to including utility flasks, but it's a huge space that has barely been touched.

@Polaris:

1. Come endgame, life flasks are for specific builds, mana flasks are for specific builds, and granite and quicksilver are ironically the only flasks for all builds. The conventional wisdom seems backwards here.
2. The problem isn't Sapphire Flasks being too broad, it's them not being broad enough. I think lumping all the cold defense options into a single flask is appropriate. However, flasks for elemental offensive options is actually a really cool idea.
3. On my cell now, will get suggested Granite progression later.
4. Duration could always be adjusted downward if it becomes a problem. My vision for Liquor Flasks is something that can be very useful while leveling (or in races) but would still be a joke option for endgame play.

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pneuma wrote:

You missed the fifth point about flasks that needs to change: only the people getting kills in a party are getting flask charges. Culling strikers empty everyone else's flasks and keep theirs permanently maxed out.

I think the proper deal for flask charges in parties is 100% for killing blow, 50% for all others... this would cause overall flask charge distribution in groups to match item quantity in groups (50% more per additional player). It would still mean that, to some degree, Cullers get lots of charges and those playing with one get less... but such should be the pro/con relationship of running with a Culler.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Granite Flasks only interact with 1 out of 3 armor types. So it's not relevant to 2/3 of players unless it's really good. If it's really good then what is the progression doing- making it less good? But it needs to be good to be worth the progression. It's a Catch 22 if you try to apply progression. I like them being just 1 tier because they are specialized to just 1 armor type. Sure, it's powerful enough to make that armor type relevant to everyone, but that's actually good. That means it was successfully designed as a flask for everyone to use, just the way I like it. If the flask is specialized for just one group then I would argue it should be a skill instead (usually), and if it can't cut it as a skill then just as an aura or passive node/keystone.

EV and ES scale better from a Granite than an AR user does.

So actually Granite is more relevant to ES and EV than AR. Unless it's a strong Iron Skin.