Official Blender Post! Lets theory craft for 1.2! 123k Cleave DPS!

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x2P wrote:

My sword build was from prior to the ranger changes, I completely forgot to revamp it for that.

Here is a slight modification to what you posted that will give 9% more AS for 1 extra point. I will add it as a secondary build.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQAAecFLQ6tEdUSIBLhFCAUdRjbGS4aVRv6IWAl3yftKaUyCTboOJY67UCgQ5xHfkp9UEdQUFPfVElXDVhjWNtbr16LXz9gS2EhY3Bko2VNZ4BnoHKpdO108XrvfNmDfITZhO-HdozPkAqRzpkrmy2bg565ns2kGacwqAerxayqtxe53b2BvqfAD8bYz_jSIdJN1I_ZYd0N51LvDu9O7-PyL_Pd9kj3vvzFwQfXfjQ11FIG7pdwYxevohDwXznd48qQbml469yC5wrvetN-cHIDh5VmG60=

The difference from this to my current sword build posted is:
7% less PD
No lavalash
16% more attack speed
4% less block.

I feel like it would be pretty even once LL is accounted for.

Ooo, even more sexy with more attack speed. Very nice. I kind of assumed you must have just forgotten to re-look at the ranger nodes, because your guide is kick ass and well put together.

Thanks again! I will skip Ice Bite, but Lava Lash seems too good to pass up for 1 point when using the added fire gem. I will have to evaluate other trade offs like block for IAS haha. I kind of like the idea of having 50% block, but can likely live with 46% instead ;)

I just got my hands on



In your guide you recommended 1 fast and 1 slow hard hitting weapon. Which weapon is soul taker? When looking for a second weapon to pair with soul taker, should I value attack speed or dmg per hit most?

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azuredrag wrote:

I just got my hands on

In your guide you recommended 1 fast and 1 slow hard hitting weapon. Which weapon is soul taker? When looking for a second weapon to pair with soul taker, should I value attack speed or dmg per hit most?

DPS is what you need to look for most. 1 fast and 1 slow is not entirely needed, it is just the best way to get the highest possible DPS. Typically Soul Taker would be considered a fast one.

Oh man...a few changes to my tree and a Bringer of Rain later, and my duelist is ripping through maps in style. I've only solo'd some 68s and 69s so far, but prior to the change I was only able to make it through some 66's solo and going at a careful pace. In a 68 dungeon map I was able to take out the Brutus boss standing toe to toe with him...very happy. Thanks for your guide! I didn't realize how much I was losing out by not jacking Phys/IAS and using some elemental.

Question for you, if you'll humour me? What are your thoughts on crit with this type of build?

Right now I have 345% chance to crit from passives and these rings / weapons. That translates out to 28% main hand crit and 28.3% main hand crit. I can pick up 68% crit multiplier from an ammy and also grab another 30% in the tree easily enough to give me 268% multiplier.



Cleave DPS while buffed is 15,500. Attacks per second on character sheet is over 3...so I can say I have "9 attacks per second" with Multistrike, right? I am running Cleave, Multi, Added Fire and Life leech in BoR.

My current tree also gives me 247% phys damage and 93% attack speed. I have 2% mana leech from tree to run my attacks and 3 auras: purity, determination, hatred off of mana. I run Grace off my HP. I am missing some defensive nodes with this build though, and res tech, although my chance to hit is well over 90% with accuracy bonuses from passives/gear.

Current Tree:

I am torn between doing a full respec to feature just Phys/IAS as in your sword build, or leaving my crit build intact. I have 5 more skill points coming my way as I level from 75 to 80 so I could pick up the block nodes I am missing...though I would be stuck with only 4 endurance charges total.

Any thoughts on this? Do you have any experience /w crit in this type of build and what you think performs better? Don't waste too much time on me, just curious what your thoughts are. Thanks again for posting your guide, it was excellent food for thought and spurred me to fix my Duelist :)

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Halezor wrote:

Oh man...a few changes to my tree and a Bringer of Rain later, and my duelist is ripping through maps in style. I've only solo'd some 68s and 69s so far, but prior to the change I was only able to make it through some 66's solo and going at a careful pace. In a 68 dungeon map I was able to take out the Brutus boss standing toe to toe with him...very happy. Thanks for your guide! I didn't realize how much I was losing out by not jacking Phys/IAS and using some elemental.

Question for you, if you'll humour me? What are your thoughts on crit with this type of build?

Right now I have 345% chance to crit from passives and these rings / weapons. That translates out to 28% main hand crit and 28.3% main hand crit. I can pick up 68% crit multiplier from an ammy and also grab another 30% in the tree easily enough to give me 268% multiplier.

Spoiler

Cleave DPS while buffed is 15,500. Attacks per second on character sheet is over 3...so I can say I have "9 attacks per second" with Multistrike, right? I am running Cleave, Multi, Added Fire and Life leech in BoR.

My current tree also gives me 247% phys damage and 93% attack speed. I have 2% mana leech from tree to run my attacks and 3 auras: purity, determination, hatred off of mana. I run Grace off my HP. I am missing some defensive nodes with this build though, and res tech, although my chance to hit is well over 90% with accuracy bonuses from passives/gear.

Current Tree:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQAAAYDhwR-BLEFLQX5Bu4OSA6tEuEV8BX2Fr8Y2xmKGtsbrRv6IWAj9iT9Jd8mlSmlLYMyCTQ1OlhAoEOcR35KfUxgUzVT31VLVvpY21pIW69gS2HiYnljF2VNZ6BtbG17bmlwUnBydO108XrvhNmE74cZh3aH24w2lWaXBpdwmSubLZuDm7WeuaLqpBmmf6c0q8Wxs7VIvYG-p8BRwQfQ7tN-1FLXft0N44TnVO1B7g7vTu_w8-r3o_zF

I am torn between doing a full respec to feature just Phys/IAS as in your sword build, or leaving my crit build intact. I have 5 more skill points coming my way as I level from 75 to 80 so I could pick up the block nodes I am missing...though I would be stuck with only 4 endurance charges total.

Any thoughts on this? Do you have any experience /w crit in this type of build and what you think performs better? Don't waste too much time on me, just curious what your thoughts are. Thanks again for posting your guide, it was excellent food for thought and spurred me to fix my Duelist :)

3 APS is very low especially for a physical cleave build with multi strike and 93% attack speed... that makes NO sense to me.

Your crit is negligable and you will get more DPS out of %damage stacking than you will with your crit unless you get very very high multipliers with high attacks per second (I'm at 13.4 attacks per second with haste). The only way this is viable is if you have 90-95% chance to hit with 30+% crit chance and 350+% total multiplier. Though the major issue with crit is that because of the hard cap on life leech you will kill yourself on reflect mobs unless you stacked armor to 65-70% baseline and use an improved armor granite or use vaal pact.(obviously if you have high dps, otherwise crit will work fine)

Phys/IAS with 4 auras (if you can afford alpha's howl or 2 points for mana reservation) will provide you with the highest return on offensive and defensive stats (purity/vitality, determination, haste, hatred as well as blood magic'd grace)

As far as your skill tree... you forgoe too many damage nodes for going up to crit in the ranger/shadow area. Once you start getting higher damage (from either weapons or talents) you will end up critting for up to 80-90k damage per second which can be lethal without vaal pact which I really don't think this build should get. Better to have 30-50k sustained dps and then go defensive for more life/armor than to get more crit damage.... i mean you can already solo almost any map with this build.

You use 35 points in the top of the tree. The mana leech REALLY isn't that important as you can get it on an amulet or gloves with ease. Up in the top tree you use about 22 points to get ~60% weapon damage, crit nodes, 19% attack speed and about 50% health. Those same 35 points can be turned into MUCH higher damage, similar attack speed and similar health while getting valuable defensive passives like leather and steel + dervish. Especially because you are sword only you can get a BUNCH of sword nodes for those points and get more DPS especially long term. Not to mention you use another 5 points for twin terrors.

93% attack speed without haste is just pointless. Anything more than 70% from talents is just too much in my opinion and you can get more damage/survivability instead.

If you really want a crit based build then go shadow crit daggers :P

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DPS is what you need to look for most. 1 fast and 1 slow is now needed, it is just the best way to get the highest possible DPS. Typically Soul Taker would be considered a fast one.

A lot of weapons get DPS from attack speed... so if you can get 300+ damage with a 1.5 modifier or less then do it. Honestly my weapon is very high DPS but attackspeed can play a huge role in that factor (corsair sword)

So your ideal sword eventually would be a 210% + attack damage, phys + strength. Attack speed helps but is optional as it will skyrocket the price of the item (like 30 ex-mirror status)

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Onto my own part of the post. Anyone have an opinion on IIR.IIQ gear with this build? Since almost all of it's actual damage comes from your weapons + armor/helm and passives?

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x2P wrote:

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azuredrag wrote:

I just got my hands on

In your guide you recommended 1 fast and 1 slow hard hitting weapon. Which weapon is soul taker? When looking for a second weapon to pair with soul taker, should I value attack speed or dmg per hit most?

DPS is what you need to look for most. 1 fast and 1 slow is now needed, it is just the best way to get the highest possible DPS. Typically Soul Taker would be considered a fast one.

So I bought this before reading your post



Does that mean I messed up? Would I have gotten a ton more dps out of using the slowest hardest hitting sword i can find?

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azuredrag wrote:

Would I have gotten a ton more dps out of using the slowest hardest hitting sword i can find?

pretty sure no, he recommends a slow and a fast one for a balance between speed and raw damage. But dps is dps.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

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azuredrag wrote:

Would I have gotten a ton more dps out of using the slowest hardest hitting sword i can find?

pretty sure no, he recommends a slow and a fast one for a balance between speed and raw damage. But dps is dps.

Exactly this.

The point is that not everyone has 10+ exalts to spend on a really high end dps weapon and that you can balance the two speeds. DPS though is still calculated with speed of items so if it has more DPS use it. Also this build does not gain anything from elemental damage really unless you have a 6l chest and use WED.

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Shodokan123 wrote:

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

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azuredrag wrote:

Would I have gotten a ton more dps out of using the slowest hardest hitting sword i can find?

pretty sure no, he recommends a slow and a fast one for a balance between speed and raw damage. But dps is dps.

Exactly this.

The point is that not everyone has 10+ exalts to spend on a really high end dps weapon and that you can balance the two speeds. DPS though is still calculated with speed of items so if it has more DPS use it. Also this build does not gain anything from elemental damage really unless you have a 6l chest and use WED.

Using 2 fast weapons works fine. Having 1 fast and 1 slow is just ideal due to the averaging of the weapon speeds. Ill give a quick example with exaggerated numbers to make it easier to see.

Lets say you have no % attack speed and no damage from your passive tree and you are going off of weapons alone.

------------ Scenario 1 - 2 fast weapons ------------

Hypothetically have 2 weapons that are 2.00 APS and do 100-200 damage per hit. This means both weapons of yours do 300 DPS. This means you are doing 600 DPS as both weapons are hitting an average of 150 damage every .5 seconds. In 2 seconds, you will average 1200 damage total.

Hand 1 = 4 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150, 150 = 600 damage.
Hand 2 = 4 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150, 150 = 600 damage.

------------ Scenario 2 - 1 fast and 1 slow ------------

Now in scenario 2, you have a fast main hand that has 2.00APS that did 100-200 (300 DPS). Your off-hand does 200-400 damage and has an attack speed of 1.00 APS (300 DPS). Your average cleave attack speed between the 2 weapons is now 1.5 for each. On cleave your main hand does the same average 150 damage per hit 1.5 times a second, your off hand does an average of 300 damage per hit 1.5 times a second. So in 2 seconds each hand hits 3 times. Your main hand averagely hits for 150, 3 separate times in 2 seconds, equaling 450 damage from your main hand. Your off hand hits 3 times in 2 seconds for an average of 300 damage per hit. This means in that same 2 seconds you are dealing 1350 damage total.


Hand 1 = 3 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150 = 450 damage.
Hand 2 = 3 hits in 2 seconds - 300, 300, 300 = 900 damage.

^^^^^

This shows that a slower weapon as an offhand, mixed with a fast main-hand gives extra DPS. This is without factoring any attack speed from multistrike or your passive tree. All of the attack speed from your tree and multistrike increase this effect even further. This build stacks so much % physical and attack speed that they start hitting heavy diminishing returns. Losing 10% attack speed from 200+ % is nothing when you can nearly double your base damages of one of your weapons.

...Basically the idea is to make your fast light hitting weapon share it's speed with your slower hard hitting one.

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x2P wrote:

Using 2 fast weapons works fine. Having 1 fast and 1 slow is just ideal due to the averaging of the weapon speeds. Ill give a quick example with exaggerated numbers to make it easier to see.

Lets say you have no % attack speed and no damage from your passive tree and you are going off of weapons alone.

------------ Scenario 1 - 2 fast weapons ------------

Hypothetically have 2 weapons that are 2.00 APS and do 100-200 damage per hit. This means both weapons of yours do 300 DPS. This means you are doing 600 DPS as both weapons are hitting an average of 150 damage every .5 seconds. In 2 seconds, you will average 1200 damage total.

Hand 1 = 4 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150, 150 = 600 damage.
Hand 2 = 4 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150, 150 = 600 damage.

------------ Scenario 2 - 1 fast and 1 slow ------------

Now in scenario 2, you have a fast main hand that has 2.00APS that did 100-200 (300 DPS). Your off-hand does 200-400 damage and has an attack speed of 1.00 APS (300 DPS). Your average cleave attack speed between the 2 weapons is now 1.5 for each. On cleave your main hand does the same average 150 damage per hit 1.5 times a second, your off hand does an average of 300 damage per hit 1.5 times a second. So in 2 seconds each hand hits 3 times. Your main hand averagely hits for 150, 3 separate times in 2 seconds, equaling 450 damage from your main hand. Your off hand hits 3 times in 2 seconds for an average of 300 damage per hit. This means in that same 2 seconds you are dealing 1350 damage total.


Hand 1 = 3 hits in 2 seconds - 150, 150, 150 = 450 damage.
Hand 2 = 3 hits in 2 seconds - 300, 300, 300 = 900 damage.

^^^^^

This shows that a slower weapon as an offhand, mixed with a fast main-hand gives extra DPS. This is without factoring any attack speed from multistrike or your passive tree. All of the attack speed from your tree and multistrike increase this effect even further. This build stacks so much % physical and attack speed that they start hitting heavy diminishing returns. Losing 10% attack speed from 200+ % is nothing when you can nearly double your base damages of one of your weapons.

...Basically the idea is to make your fast light hitting weapon share it's speed with your slower hard hitting one.

Alright. That makes sense. I've never heard of a top end of 400 before though.

So at 10 APS vs 12 aps (what I'm at now, 182 from sword) you'd actually get (assuming about 250 dps excluding attack speed)

Total would be

2148 for current weapon (2 aps)
2500 for the other type of weapon

Meaning your attacks would do 400 more damage per second. Interesting.

Doing the math though I'd need an item with at least 250 average damage (not dps) in order to gain substantial difference in DPS from my current weapon set.

It doesn't make a huge difference, but it is a difference none the less.