Death Penalty Changes in 0.11.3

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Chris wrote:

The new experimental experience penalty values are 3% in Cruel and 8% in Merciless (down from 7.5% and 15% respectively). These can and will change in the future based on feedback and analysis of play patterns.

What a bad decision, one of the reasons I fell in love with PoE was the harsh death penalty. It was the first steps that made me have the decision of switching to Hardcore League.

My first character (Ignarsoll) was in default league after going through merciless deaths hurt way too much and I actually enjoyed it because at that point it caused me to become a better player. After that I decided to try Hardcore League and the joy was not comparable to what I was having in Default.

Now learning about this change makes me a little sad even it doesn't affect me. Considering there are more people like me who enjoyed death penalty but didn't take the step to Hardcore League, I guess there is plenty of people more disappointed than me.

[removed by Admin]

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RupertFranklyn wrote:

I believe these changes are good for POE. I don't really foresee a negative impact. This will hopefully help with player retention and bring in more supporters.

Anyone who wants the Hardcore experience can still play in Hardcore and Onslaught leagues.

Indeed. So simple yet people don't get it.

It's funny how people keep calling the default league "softcore" and yet expect it to be anything but softcore.

To me there are 2 types of deaths in this game. The first is the "I got careless/stuffed up/had an issue death" which covers most eventualities of doing something stupid, having a cat sit on the keyboard/mouse, network/server issues, mouse battery going flat etc. Basically it covers any death against mobs/elites or mini-bosses where you should not have died.

The second type of death is one resulting from a boss fight where you go into it knowing that death is a significant risk.

For the first type of death, an XP penalty will normally be a real penalty where you will actually take a hit to your leveling progress.

For the second type of death it should not. Any experienced player will normally look at their leveling progress before they enter the fight and decide whether or not they are willing to take the risk of getting killed and being hit with a level penalty. If they aren't willing to take the hit then they quickly head of elsewhere to farm however many experience bars they are short before fighting that boss. Basically if you have just leveled or are reduced to 0% experience towards the next level, then it means that you can not be penalised (or penalised further), rendering the death penalty impotent.

I would prefer to see a system of rewards and/or penalties introduced. The reward/penalty could be applied to any or all of xp, quantity or quality. Go for an entire level without getting killed and get a percentage bonus (1 or 2% max) and have these stacking each and every level that you complete without getting killed. This could give quite significant bonuses at low levels but would be minimal at higher levels (ie after you have had a death or 2) unless you manage to avoid death entirely.

On the otherhand if you die then a significant penalty would immediately be applied (-5% or -10%). These would also stack however they should be capped at some minimum value (-25% or -50% would be realistic) and they should be then eliminated entirely once you leveled (ie resetting everything back to 0%). A mechanism might need to be put in place at higher levels where leveling is very difficult/next to impossible but I imagine that could be worked out. Having the bonuses applied/penalties removed every 2 or 5 bars at level 66 and above may be appropriate.

So in summary - If don't die often then you will get more treasure, of higher average quality and a little more experience. Die (and especially if you die a lot) then you will get less treaure, of lower average quality until the next time you level, and it will take longer to level due to reduced XP.

I disagree with these changes.
After a while the softcore community will start whining again about the rate of death penalty.


[IRONY ON]
I suggest to jump into the next phase of death penalty system right away:
Introduce a system where people GAIN experience after each death.
[IRONY OFF]

I'm of the opinion that 3 and 8 are good numbers, but I wouldn't mind 5 and 10, either. With the way the XP bar is drawn up, 5 and 10 are easily visualized. That having been said, even 8% is a difficult penalty to swallow on higher levels.

I'm willing to bet there's a large portion of the playerbase who enjoys progressing into endgame, but doesn't have the time or inclination to lose every bit of their progress upon one death. The loss system in Standard and Anarchy supports a learning curve, one which becomes very steep in the endgame.

If you think this makes Standard or Anarchy too easy, then why aren't you on Hardcore or Onslaught? The whole purpose of multiple leagues is to accommodate multiple styles of play.

Boo. This is really lame. I felt pretty good about the tuning of the EXP penalties as the were: annoying (in a good way) in cruel and painful in merciless. The death penalty keeps me vigilant and makes leveling more rewarding. When I make it through a full level without dying, I feel like it's an accomplishment.

I feel like a better approach than blanket nerfs to the exp penalty would be to add some mechanics that soften the blow of the penalty under specific circumstances-- specifically reducing the frustration that occurs when you die a couple of times very quickly. Maybe it's a boss, maybe a rogue exile, maybe an especially tough pack of elites or whatever. Maybe it's just bad luck. Personally, these are the times when the frustration from the penalty gets excessive. I usually try to face tough bosses just after leveling so that I don't even have to worry about the penalty, but this buff would give people more freedom.

Idea 1: how about when you die you get a buff that last about 5 minutes which reduces the EXP penalty from death by 50%. Maybe let it stack, maybe not.

Idea 2: some kind of consumable that gives temporary immunity from the exp penalty.

Idea 3: Introduce ways to lower the exp penalty for high level characters over time. Maybe it's automatic once you hit 70/80/90 or a quest that takes a LONG time to complete. Basically, the idea is to give some relief as the time to level gets exponentially longer and the penalty becomes more and more devastating.


All of these solutions would preserve the tension that the exp penalty creates during the vast majority of play while reducing the spikiness of the frustration levels.

I stopped playing primarily because I would get so frustrated at dying over and over. I'm not a hardcore player, and I enjoy playing a glass canon that can still progress, while knowing I'm going to die some.

I don't make it a habit of dying, and I certainly like the idea of a penalty, but I'd also like the option of having some equippable, consumable experience penalty reduction item that can be purchased from merchants or something or at least this 8% penalty so that a string of deaths doesn't send me off to other games when I get too frustrated.

I asked a friend of mine why he quit, and he said he too felt he was unable to progress. We are not casual easy-mode players, but we are also not hardcore league players.

I need to point out that I play a EV/ES CI shadow with 5k ES, ridiculous damage, and rely heavily on whirling blades and mobility. My dps on flicker strike gets to be around 40k or so with my charges, and I can't even use it or WB for fear of dying. I realize that these two mechanics are technically difficult to change to make them safer due to the desync issue and since flicker is so high damage, it should be somewhat dangerous, but I just don't find LS spam enjoyable just because I don't want to die.

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Xedralya wrote:

I'm of the opinion that 3 and 8 are good numbers, but I wouldn't mind 5 and 10, either. With the way the XP bar is drawn up, 5 and 10 are easily visualized. That having been said, even 8% is a difficult penalty to swallow on higher levels.

I'm willing to bet there's a large portion of the playerbase who enjoys progressing into endgame, but doesn't have the time or inclination to lose every bit of their progress upon one death. The loss system in Standard and Anarchy supports a learning curve, one which becomes very steep in the endgame.

If you think this makes Standard or Anarchy too easy, then why aren't you on Hardcore or Onslaught? The whole purpose of multiple leagues is to accommodate multiple styles of play.

Exactly. The elitist keep thinking that everyone else must love as much sadistic challenges as they do, they whine when there are options for others to approach the game differently.

Leave exp loss as is now. But I have problem with exp loss when I die in offscreen desync, after one Boss shot. If this happens, I want to throw the computer out of the window. This pisses me off a lot. :/