Since when did arpgs become merchant simulators?

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Jojas wrote:

The chances to craft something really worthwile are almost abysmally low. As of now, with the exception of using fusings, NOBODY does it. You might occasionally regal or exalt something and will usually end up saying "shit". That's it. Basically crafting is dead. You really think the game would become too easy with an incentive to use your orbs on gear instead of as a currency?

The practice of actually using currency on items is not dead. Tons of orbs are burned every day, by players who are serious about chaining high-level maps and by players who can't trade for the upgrades they desire. However, this practice is exclusive; it is primarily for those players who have high-level maps and who can't trade for the upgrades they desire. It's a major mistake to think that because it's dead for most that it's dead absolutely. The majority of the orbs you trade away eventually end up in the hands of someone who actually uses them.

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Jojas wrote:

Let's say there is an abundance of alchs and chaos (which is what I would prefer), what would happen is that they lose any value when it comes to trading. But people would *use* them, especially new players. More people could reroll maps more often. People could pick up some 4L boots and give them a few tries, just because they can.

They already can. They don't, because trading is more efficient. It would still be more efficient. Alchs and Chaos wouldn't lose value when it comes to trading, they would still be just as effective as ever in the hands of the true end consumer; people would still horde them for trade instead of using them. It would still be more effective to trade for generic 4L boots than craft them yourself.

Cost of used < cost of new.

The only two things you have right is that people would reroll maps more (as a consumable, maps are always new), and overall, yes, slightly more orbs would be spent by the average person. However, this increased consumption would be through the "money burning a hole through your wallet" principle; statistically, people make more stupid and rash decisions with currency the more of it they have, so making them richer will cause more suboptimal use. It will not, however, have much effect on what optimal use looks like.

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Jojas wrote:

By "voluntarily crippling" you mean choosing not to trade. How would that make the game too easy for everybody else?

Well, if we're not changing the universal droprates, it doesn't impact difficulty. If we balance universal droprate based off self-found, it makes the game too easy for traders.

Somehow you sometimes disagree with me while basically saying the same thing as I.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The practice of actually using currency on items is not dead. Tons of orbs are burned every day, by players who are serious about chaining high-level maps and by players who can't trade for the upgrades they desire. However, this practice is exclusive; it is primarily for those players who have high-level maps and who can't trade for the upgrades they desire. It's a major mistake to think that because it's dead for most that it's dead absolutely. The majority of the orbs you trade away eventually end up in the hands of someone who actually uses them.

As I said, crafting is for the rich.


Many people do not care for an optimal use. They just want to have fun. I think it's pretty clear that finding a nice pair of 4L boots and alching -> chaosing them a few times is considered "fun" for much more people than having them bought.
In terms of what is more effective I don't disagree with you. But you seem to be wrong on how people want to play. For many people effectiveness < fun. Ideally both go hand in hand, but in the current state PoE rewards a strict self-imposed regimen of min/maxing and effectiveness. This is considered "fun" for only a select few people.

You also seem to be wrong on the inflational loss of value of alchs and chaos once there is an overabundance. For trading their use is extremely limited now. Would there be more of them it would be almost non-existent. This due to the fact that that high-level players would have plenty anyway, but at the same time would not keep anything to trade which would only net them a few alchs and/or chaos. So low-level players - those who figured the whole thing out - would not get far by hoarding them but instead feel motivated to actually use them. This is speculation of course.

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Well, if we're not changing the universal droprates, it doesn't impact difficulty. If we balance universal droprate based off self-found, it makes the game too easy for traders.

Yes, traders would have three ways to get better gear instead of two. Still, I think - and I think this point stands - that by crafting your chances to get something awesome are too low to make it have any impact on the availabilty of (especially) high-end stuff. But your chances to get something decent would improve dramatically.
And since people who play these kind of games always want "something better" (i.e. high-end) it would keep much more people motivated without actually making others losing their motivation due to them "having it all": As far as I can tell most people leave not because there is nothing more for them to gain but because of frustration.

This reminds me so much on a game that got killed by the players that want it fast, faster, fastest. He just explains it in words much better than I.


Ok simple question:

How many minutes you think you guys should play to get an Exalt, a 5L, a 6L, a perfect rolled piece of gear.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Since when did arpgs become merchant simulators?

Since Blizzard and GGG.

That's not fair to GGG at all. The correct answer is "Since Diablo 3."

It's not like PoE started with this amazingly efficient trading system that reinforced the concept of always going for the hand-me-down; if anything, trading was discouraged. However, the auction house culture created by Diablo 3 doesn't exist in a vacuum, and a huge portion of the ARPG community is now keenly aware of trading opportunities, has come to rely heavily on trading as a means of progression, and — perhaps most noticeably — isn't afraid of lobbying for their cause on the forums through QQ and suggestions.

Just think about the Diablo 2 days. There wasn't a "solo self-found" label, because there was no contrast — everyone was solo self-found. And although PoE isn't really that terribly divergent from D2 economically (excess "gold" is still used to gamble), the shift in expectations caused by D3 are the cause of this push for improved trading mechanisms.

Except GGG had this model in development long before D3 launched, watched D3 burn and still have yet to realise that the big bad wolf doesn't need to come knocking, he's sat inside PoE with a tinderbox.

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tadl wrote:

This reminds me so much on a game that got killed by the players that want it fast, faster, fastest. He just explains it in words much better than I.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Ok simple question:

How many minutes you think you guys should play to get an Exalt, a 5L, a 6L, a perfect rolled piece of gear.

I haven't played WoW but I think you misunderstood either the video or the intention of this thread. The video is all about tuning down the difficulty. This thread is all about making crafting more rewarding. Not the same thing.

I think this game would be much more popular (and better) if crafting and drops were vastly improved while having a ramped up difficulty, i.e. any boss being about as difficult as the rogue exiles are and the white and blue monsters being slightly more dangerous as well.

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cypherrage wrote:

There's about 2 other threads currently floating around the front page already discussing this topic, but yes, to reiterate:

(Assuming current Leagues aren't altered)
1) New Leage
2) Increase drop rates by factor of 10
3) Disable trading of currency.

Problem solved.

I REALLY like this idea, could be awesome...

I really love crafting in this game but its just impossible to supply all the orbs needed for basic item progression >_>

Right now i need res and life items and with 10 chaoses didnt make even 1 worth-to-try item >_>

While i could buy midicore item with all the rolls i needed for this 2.5 gcp...



edit. Also Topic has GGG sign as some1 replyed to it -> reply was deleted :/

I've been playing for more than a year and never traded anything.
I play with my girlfriend and my brother, and we actually craft, sometimes. And it sometimes turns into a good item. Some other time it is quite frustrating. But even with semi-rare orbs like Orbs of Alchemy, you can create some nice things.

I played D3 for one or two months when it was released. The fact that I could find the perfect item in one click in the Auction House was what (amongst other problems) ruined the game for me.
I don't want to trade in PoE because it would feel like cheating and take away all the pleasure of finding/crafting items.
Oh yes, maybe my brother, my girlfriend and I won't be able to do über rare maps because we do not have top-of-the-notch items, but guess what? We have more fun like this.

I don't play PoE to repeat the real world fucking problems and stupid trade system, be it with dollars, D3 gold or PoE orbs. I just want to have -surprise- FUN.

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Jojas wrote:

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tadl wrote:

This reminds me so much on a game that got killed by the players that want it fast, faster, fastest. He just explains it in words much better than I.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Ok simple question:

How many minutes you think you guys should play to get an Exalt, a 5L, a 6L, a perfect rolled piece of gear.

I haven't played WoW but I think you misunderstood either the video or the intention of this thread. The video is all about tuning down the difficulty. This thread is all about making crafting more rewarding. Not the same thing.

I think this game would be much more popular (and better) if crafting and drops were vastly improved while having a ramped up difficulty, i.e. any boss being about as difficult as the rogue exiles are and the white and blue monsters being slightly more dangerous as well.

Pretty much.

I play self found, I actively avoid the path of least resistance.
I see buying your gear as about as least resistant as you can get.
I enjoy being gimped, I enjoy struggling to build a character with what drops I get, never optimised but always gaining a bit here if it means losing a bit there. Simply dressing my paper doll to order is not what I look for in an aRPG, loot-find, progression game.

I am fine with it taking on average 1500 fusings to 6L, I'm fine with it taking 1500 chromes to off-colour your required permutation on a base type you chose for other reasons than easy chroming. I'm fine with Kaom's and Lioneye's being rare as fk, and I'm fine with the drop chance of them all, as it is.

What I'm not fine with, is other orb drops. An orb to add an affix out of a massive RNG pool should not be as rare as it is, same goes for all the high tier orbs. The RNG in crafting is fine, in itself, as long as one can tap away at that RNG.

High end content should be there for the challenge, it should provide orbs to craft with, it should not require one to sink said orbs into accessing the content rather than crafting with them, only to not even return the cost.

The real kicker, is that a non-trader can't effectively craft (or for that matter progress high maps), he doesn't get the orbs. A trader gets the orbs, but wouldn't craft anyway as trading is better.

Wanting better orb drops =/= wanting easy. Easy is what we have, shopping is easy.
Better orb drops, less trading is in fact a far less resistant path than the lolshopping we have right now.

A new build surfaces, in a matter of days someone has kitted their character out in the perfect gear for the build, the build gets nerfed in no time at all, often with consequences that reach far wider than that build. Without that instant availability of gear through trading, these builds can exist, people can ever get closer to fully utilising the build, slowly, but surely and probably never get to the point where the build is an OP problem.

Don't get me started on the RMT/botting/hacking by product of this free-trade model in modern communication. It sickens me so much that I'll likely have my account gutted at some point when I'd be quite happy if nothing I ever loot was fluid.

@Jojas:

A strict, self-imposed regimen of min/maxing and effectiveness is the winning strategy for pretty much everything, including life. Increasing droprates will not make min/maxing less effective (nor do we want min/maxing to be less effective; skill should be rewarded).

Overabundance doesn't justify poor decision-making. If you have an overabundance of currency and you ignore "cost of used < cost of new," you are wasting currency. This is true about buying cars, and it's true about items in Path of Exile. Increasing droprates will not make this any less true.

Usually the frustration that causes players to quit isn't in reaching a specific gear level, but in an endless desire for upgrades that is never satisfied. There is no way to quell that frustration by increasing drop rates; it's the item types, rare affixes, and uniques available that set the upgrade ceiling. Players that quit in frustration for that reason would still quit in frustration later.

The only effect of increasing orb droprate which you seem to care about is making the game more forgiving of orb management errors. Your other words are window dressing to this point. I don't think Path of Exile needs to be easier in such a manner.