maps drop rate

You might want to read again and then make a relevant comment if you can manage one.

Well, after finding 2 dune maps (60lvl)(after completing merciless - no found maps while going through act 2, except these two while I was grinding Pyramid for 1 weekend) ... then another 1 Groto found in the second map (all maze, larger area etc. mods)... all with ~10% IIQ

...I increased my IIQ, to avoid boring stuff... true, drop is better... with 70%, after replacing gear, wasting Currency to reconstruct it in a way That I was hoping to at least get a constant inflow of maps (for playing them, not for selling them) i found 3 more... something like ... a Map per per 2-3 Pyramid runs (includign boss kills)...

Then I decided that these 3, with the specific mods (maze, area etc.) and my new 70% IIQ gear (sucky equip that was already in my stash will be enough to keep me away from the skeletons (you know where).
Waste about 70-80 alternations (to get the appropriate "larger" maps) and proud of myself, start having fun with maps :) ... 1-st map, the Lake, yield another dune. "This is IT" i tought, im done with pyramid considering I have 2 more maps in my stash and at the middle of my first run I have one more... It was a 60 dune again, but hey, who cares, it is a map... Then did the overgrown, nice map, lotsa stairs, i got confused... I was starting to get a bit nervous, cause it wasn't dropping a new map... I tought "Hey its a double boss map - 100% I will get at least 1 new map" ... but no, wrong assumption.... I decided to go again through the piles of junk (just in case, you know... don't laugh, I'm sure you have done this too:))... Then decided to check all the stairs and rooms if I have missed a room... all cleared... so i am now with two maps. 1 groto and 1 dune... Groto was with a +33% more rare mobs mod, so, I was pretty sure I will get at least 1 drop, again... wrong... I started losing hope, but i was still having my last dune... and then again.. NADA.

Maybe its just a bad luck but... who knows, but i really don't feel like going home, and start grinding Pyramid again, despite the exotic and fun build of my toon, Maybe I am just not that addicted to the game, or maybe I can't stand the pressure of "Will I get another map, or i won't, in this run", to grind my way back again to maps. Maybe I am too old for this grindfest, or maybe I still have low IIQ, dunno... I guess a new toon will be a good rest. Considering I am constantly farming old content areas, at least to build a new character in them, not grinding them with a 15 levels higher character :) Happy hunting all :)

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ethone wrote:

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Zweihainder wrote:

2. Massive/labyrinthine of hordes/champions/commanders is either too good or the quantity bonus from actual "debuffs" is not good enough. Still. Take your pick.

Don't foget that massive/labyrinthine maps are just simply bigger. They don't "actually" drop more maps, they're just bigger with more monsters. Perhaps a more accurate measure would be maps per minute (or hour, or days for the pessimists ;)). That dude in another thread spent 2.5 hours in one map. If he wouldn't be able to find 2.5 times the maps one could find in a 1 hour map then something would be off there as well. Nerfing them based on the wrong metric would not be very constructive.

In that regard the bigger map mods have one crucial advantage though: They keep you out of the Pyramid and in the maps system for longer, making them appear more fun. From what I've read, most people prefer running any kind of map to grinding the Pyramid over and over.

You're half right and half wrong, as the fellow above pointed out. You're correct in that they don't necessarily drop more maps per monster or time spent, but they do drop more maps per map. Once you have a decent amount of maps, it's more about maps per map rather than maps vs number of monsters/time spent. Your "time spent" argument also ignores that they're more exp per map and it's also more high end loot per map, which is a pretty big deal given the extremely limited number of 64+ (heck, even 62+ maps) out there right now. They're simply more efficient uses of your resources.

I'll give an example that just happened to me, over the last 2 maps I ran.

2 maps ago I ran an utterly vicious 57% base quantity level 62 spider lair. It was a 6 mod map - skeleton enemies, burning ground, chaos damage per sec, blood magic, 34% increased damage with 96% extra damage as lightning on top. That's a map pretty much restricted to high HP/HP regen marauders or duelists unless you feel like dying a bunch. It also has no size/monster increases. Netted about 8 rares and no new maps.

Rare level 60 dungeon next - 4 mods, 35% base quantity. Bandits, chaos damage per sec, phys reflect and extra rare monsters. Pretty bland stuff and no size increase, but an increase in rares monsters. I netted about 18 rares and 4 maps (2 60s, 2 61s there).

Neither of those maps have a size increase, so the time spent argument doesn't even apply.

I realize this is anecdotal and RNG plays a big part, but I've done plenty of maps at this point and this scenario plays out over and over. Increases in size of map/number of monsters are simply more rewarding per map than actual player debuffs/monster buffs while also being significantly easier to complete. I don't have a problem with them being easier or more rewarding, but I don't feel like they should be both. Saying it's just about time spent skirts my actual issue, which is risk/reward. It's off. You get less rewards for harder maps right now.

I was arguing against nerfing large maps on the very basis that they're not producing more/too many maps per monster (or minute or whatever) and that's it is purely when viewed on the per-map metric that it's producing "more" maps. As I said, they keep you in the maps-running-mill longer, which I even said was an advantage.

Not sure where the misunderstandings came from.

I've changed my 6/67 IIQ/IIR ratio to 18/46 IIQ/IIR.

The last few maps I've played (they were all bought not found) yielded no maps. The one map I played with a friend yielded 1 single map, which was his by rights since we used his map to play.

I'm beginning to think that in order to get maps, I need IIQ/IIR on every piece of equipment I own just to play the endgame.

pretty sure most people commenting here positively all run around with at least 150% IIQ. Apparently that is what you are supposed to do, disregard all possible upgrades and solely focus on IIQ (or have too much high end drops already).

Lately I decided to not focus on Massive/Horde affixes so much. Slowly my stash has been dropping from 14+ to 4-5 maps. At this rate I will be soon left with no maps if this keeps up. Map system is awesome, but the need to focus on IIQ means I cannot fully enjoy my build how I planned it. perhaps unavoidable, but most certainly not that entertaining.

I have done levels 66-71 exclusively in maps that I found in maps, and I have only 22% IIQ on my gear. I've been maintaining between 5 and 10 maps in my inventory too. I am rerolling maps until I feel they're reasonably farming-friendly though (2 bosses, more magic/rares, bigger packs, bigger maps, maze...). This means I have to diligently empty out maps of their blue items to maintain a healthy stock of Orbs of Alteration, Scrolls of Wisdom and so on. I've grown a relatively efficient way to make stacks of blues on the ground for me to pick up once the instance is cleared, as I'm paranoid and don't want to blow my portals too early (I haven't died in a long time though given the level difference and my map afflix grooming).

The other thing that I'm doing is to use a finisher gemmed for IIR and IIQ (Frenzy in my case). Because it's not supported by any DPS gems, it's low damage so I use it on white mobs that haven't been one-shotted, but mostly to finish blues/yellows/bosses once they're at about 20% of life left. It seems to make a difference.

So overall the drop rate *within maps* has felt just fine to me once I figured out how to game it. Smaller maps with bad rolls are more likely to not yield anything, and as other people said, the risk/reward ratio doesn't make more difficult maps that enticing. I'm not even rolling my maps as yellow until I reach the lvl 77 XP plateau, at which point I probably won't mind dying.

I'd say the main issues with maps at the moment are a) bootstrapping to get maps outside of maps can be a little rough and b) risk/reward ratio seems to steer most people towards farming-friendly afflixes and away from tougher challenges, thus diminishing gameplay variety. With the XP penalty I've seen myself become more and more risk averse, and I guess that people playing HC must really be super careful by the time they hit lvl 65+.

So unlike most End-Game content and what MoC used to offer, Maps do not offer the ability to select your own difficulty, or to quickly progress towards your desired difficulty.

The probability, in the current system, of raising the level of difficulty by finding higher level Maps within other Maps is quite low.

What are some ideas that might be useful towards fixing this without breaking the itemized Map concept?

I can think of one... Combine Maps via recipes to level them up to a higher level white Map.

This still however presents a problem of only sporadically allowing players to access Maps of appropriate difficulty. Allowing players to outright choose their difficulty of a Map defeats some of the purpose of the itemization.. so here is a new solution:

Every Map should be an endless dungeon with the mods rolled, but with only 6 portals in. Players should have a mechanism to relatively quickly move down to a level that they are comfortable with. If they are looking for a level 70 area, and start in a level 60, running through 9 lower levels is not acceptable either... so some sort of faster way should be implemented.

I think to make it fair, any MF gear should not affect the map drop rates.

Right now the problem is the map itself is the key to open more maps and those rich enough to use top IIR/IIQ gears can now gain profits powers instead of times more than usual player.

(I feel after 0.9.11, IIR/IIQ is much more welcomed than before and that somewhat makes many ppl here annoyed.)

In general whatever ratio GGG set, it is a task to satisfy the commons while not made the currency inflated. But as long as the MF gears are so greatly affecting its outcome, it is better to choose another way and just shrink the difference between the riches and the poor.

Magic find should never effect the persons ability to ENTER an end game location. It should however effect the quality and quantity once inside.