Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

I think a big part of this whole thing lies in the question "Is this game built for competition?". I would say that it was not and the competition was always optional. I think the FFA supporters feel like the game has always been about competition which is why they hate options, because it changes what they feel was an integral part of the game. If a game really is built for competition then it wouldn't really make sense to make the competition optional.

For me FFA isn't still around because we are all still pretending that this entire game is built for competition. Its around to make the players happy who enjoy it. The ones who hate timers and want all loot to instantly be available to all the players in the group.

The change to options makes sense for guys like me because I never saw the game as built for competition. People ALREADY avoided the competition through single player and playing with friends which already undermined the forced competition of FFA in public games. IMO adding options made the game more consistent.

I would agree with a lot of what Scrotie says if PoE was some kind of MMO that always forced players to be around other players. Single player would not be an option in that game. That game would be completely built around competition and therefore some variant of FFA would make more sense (preferably with a hostility button as well).

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iamstryker wrote:

A lot of what your insinuating here is such a gross misrepresentation of the other side. You think the problem is interacting with other players? You think people don't want to pay attention to the game? You think people who don't like FFA would be fine just doing nothing?

If your convinced of that stuff then theres no point in arguing with you, same as Vooodu. You don't appear to be even trying to listen to what the other side has to say so there is no point in trying to argue with you at all.

Why do you think I'm talking about this mythical "other side"? I'm talking about the human psyche in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

Good game design would strive to curb this and promote other kinds of behavior more conductive to developing various positive qualities in the players, individually and as a whole.

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iamstryker wrote:

I think a big part of this whole thing lies in the question "Is this game built for competition?". I would say that it was not and the competition was always optional. I think the FFA supporters feel like the game has always been about competition which is why they hate options, because it changes what they feel was an integral part of the game. If a game really is built for competition then it wouldn't really make sense to make the competition optional...

I would agree with a lot of what Scrotie says if PoE was some kind of MMO that always forced players to be around other players. Single player would not be an option in that game. That game would be completely built around competition and therefore some variant of FFA would make more sense (preferably with a hostility button as well).

I definitely think you're starting to understand me better. There's only two small points in there I disagree with; however, like a lot of core premises, changing it changes a lot of the logic around it.

Yes, PoE allows you to be a loner if you so choose to be; it doesn't force you to be around other players. But that doesn't mean that the default mode of the game is cooperation; you can't cooperate with yourself (minions excluded). To be fair, it doesn't mean that the default mode of the game is competition, either. This means multiplayer, while still subject to the thematic world-building you refer to, is its own entity separate from single player... or perhaps single-player is what happens when you take the yin and yang of cooperation and competition and compress them until, like antimatter canceling matter, there's nothing left.

Thus a more balanced version of short-allocation (or perhaps FFA) loot is building around the theme of simultaneously cooperation and competition; it's not like FFA loot is PvP, there's still teamwork going on there, or there would be if the system actually worked. But loot options are like giving the player an option between three separate worlds, one of which utterly fails to include the coop/comp duality in any form whatsoever.

It's not cooperation vs competition. It's (cooperation vs competition) vs (competition+cooperation). It's about taking loot options and making them more than an options switch, and making them something your character actually plays out through his choices and the choices of others. I understand the previous SA system didn't quite implement that fully; I don't think that means it deserved to be replaced the way it was.

I dont like SA/FFA when I am playing my squishy toons.

I absolutely having a blast with SA and especially FFA when I am on my melee tank.
Funny thing is a group leader created maps with FFA and some of them KICK me for being a "loot whore".

Talk about SA/FFA supporters being "tough guy" always cracks me up.

Get good at clicking (like me), a precision gaming mouse (like me), a good latency (<40ms like me), a freaking durable melee spec that doesnt use uninterruptable attacks like cyclone and leap slam, stack as much as run speed and have haste on while be quick on quicksilver flask in case you need it.

Join a FFA game, and watch people rage quit all over.


FFA/SA is extremely biased towards tanky melees, people coming up with the bullcrap saying its fair is delusional. It's only fair if everyone is playing super tank toon all in same group all stand melee right on top of the packs thats about to die and all have 50% run speed always on with a +30% speed quicksilver flask or 2.

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exit_zero wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

A lot of what your insinuating here is such a gross misrepresentation of the other side. You think the problem is interacting with other players? You think people don't want to pay attention to the game? You think people who don't like FFA would be fine just doing nothing?

If your convinced of that stuff then theres no point in arguing with you, same as Vooodu. You don't appear to be even trying to listen to what the other side has to say so there is no point in trying to argue with you at all.

Why do you think I'm talking about this mythical "other side"? I'm talking about the human psyche in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

Good game design would strive to curb this and promote other kinds of behavior more conductive to developing various positive qualities in the players, individually and as a whole.

Which is the point I was trying to make. If you think that we like loot options because we want to get loot with the least possible effort then you simply don't understand.

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iamstryker wrote:

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exit_zero wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

Good game design would strive to curb this and promote other kinds of behavior more conductive to developing various positive qualities in the players, individually and as a whole.

Which is the point I was trying to make. If you think that we like loot options because we want to get loot with the least possible effort then you simply don't understand.

I can understand how you could like loot options for a reason other than getting loot with the least possible effort (although I believe the vast majority like it for precisely that reason). I don't understand how that can simultaneously co-exist with "Which is the point I was trying to make." Are you saying that FFA is the path of least effort?

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iamstryker wrote:

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exit_zero wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

A lot of what your insinuating here is such a gross misrepresentation of the other side. You think the problem is interacting with other players? You think people don't want to pay attention to the game? You think people who don't like FFA would be fine just doing nothing?

If your convinced of that stuff then theres no point in arguing with you, same as Vooodu. You don't appear to be even trying to listen to what the other side has to say so there is no point in trying to argue with you at all.

Why do you think I'm talking about this mythical "other side"? I'm talking about the human psyche in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

Good game design would strive to curb this and promote other kinds of behavior more conductive to developing various positive qualities in the players, individually and as a whole.

Which is the point I was trying to make. If you think that we like loot options because we want to get loot with the least possible effort then you simply don't understand.

To say it with your words

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iamstryker wrote:

My mind is blown.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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exit_zero wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

Good game design would strive to curb this and promote other kinds of behavior more conductive to developing various positive qualities in the players, individually and as a whole.

Which is the point I was trying to make. If you think that we like loot options because we want to get loot with the least possible effort then you simply don't understand.

I can understand how you could like loot options for a reason other than getting loot with the least possible effort (although I believe the vast majority like it for precisely that reason). I don't understand how that can simultaneously co-exist with "Which is the point I was trying to make." Are you saying that FFA is the path of least effort?

I said that becuase he is proving my point that he doesn't get it.

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nynyny wrote:

My mind is blown

I don't expect people to understand who are entrenched in the view that this is only about game difficulty. You seem to have made up your mind so instead of wasting my time trying to explain it to you over and over again I will just say "You don't understand or you refuse to understand". That is all.

Tell me, why do you want Permanent Allocation to be part of the game then?

In the end, it adds NOTHING, and I mean literally NOTHING else but make it easier for you to get loot. You get rid of the risk of losing items when not paying attention. Is there anything I am missing?