Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

It will keep it from reaching D2's level of longevity or nostalgia.

Normal Nostagic reaction to D2: "Man I loved that game and played it so much"... "No I played single player because it was so hard to get loot in multiplayer, I Only played multiplayer for Exp"

Conclusion: Its great that PoE isn't following in D2's footsteps in this specfic area.

On a side note its great that PoE is doing many of its own things because D2's skill/respec system was SEVERELY flawed.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

I want to point out that when you are explicitly making a game for a certain group or type of players, a forced play style is necessary. Otherwise you aren't making it for that specific type of player.

I also want to point out that what is "good" is different depending on your goal. I assume what you consider "good" is what caters to the most amount of players and thereby gets the most money/makes the game the most successful. That's goes against the idea of making this game explicitly for a specific type of player, and I always understood that GGG was more interested in their vision than money. Build it, and they will come, as they say.

Edit: Also, I like how there are people now posting that they like things about FFA and FFA in general now. I'm glad to know I'm not alone, or next to it, in liking it.

1. Game was never made for a certain playstyle.

2. GGG is interested in both vision and the collection of $$$.

3. Nostalgia is nostalgia.

4. Maybe a bunch of you guys were so focused on the things I've stated, that you've forgotten that some of us still like FFA.

TL;DR I like coke and root beer. I would appreciate the offer to select which beverage I would like to drink. Of course, FFA has this "loot tension" thing that everyone seems to be obsessed about, but personally I think it is overrated. I haven't very often felt I was ever being pressured into grabbing loot. If I ever missed a piece of loot I would shake it off.

Once again, it comes down to preferences and NOT whether or not I am actually trying to avoid this "loot tension" or difficulty you wish to describe it as.

Sidenote: I'll be happy to see FFA return. I hope people use it and not timers all the time. If that is the case, then I suppose I'll be opening up my own fucking party. People will join it I'm sure. I'm really not worried about it AT ALL.

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mibuwolf wrote:

Spoiler

1. Game was never made for a certain playstyle.

Spoiler

Evidence lies in the creation of the hardcore league, while there also exists a default group (or vice versa). What's the difference? It is quite huge. In default there is very little to fear in death. Progression is almost guaranteed if you throw yourself enough times and learn how to react to the situation. Also, notice that GGG doesn't enforce group or solo play. Both are viable ways of playing and completing your characters.

I find it also quite funny that the more challenging way to play the game is solo, yet it seems most of the players out there ('hardcore' included) prefer to play in groups. The reason is not because of the challenge. The reason is that group/partying offers a different playstyle that many seek. Some prefer to see the world solo and explore as a lonely exile... but I digress. The point is --- FFA is a fun playstyle, but who is to tell you your fun in incorrect fun?

Sidenote: I see the argument keep popping up that this game was "made for the hardcore". I'm... just not seeing it. They made it just like any other game developer studio made their game. They had a vision of how they wanted to make X game and planned Y-Z features. I would also like to debate how FFA is a hardcore playstyle, but I will forever lose "that" battle.

Sidenote #2: I realized group play was recently changed to be more difficult, however, I haven't been playing AT ALL lately due to various reasons.

2. GGG is interested in both vision and the collection of $$$.

Spoiler

The reason in simple. To exist as a game studio, and to further your goals in said game studio, you will need of course $$$. Was the removal of pure FFA a betrayal? I'm not convinced it was. Many users agreed that FFA created a sort of "unfair" competition, and I'm sure you are all aware that competition means nothing without equal grounds. It means nothing to win a race with muscle enhancers, and similarly it means nothing to obtain so much loot because there was a 100ms-1second discrepancy due to monitor refresh, latency, whole nine yards. Many donators (look on page 1) made GGG well aware of the looting issue. So here we are... 900 pages later.

Sidenote: I wouldn't be surprised if GGG stated a year later they would like to finally implement an Auction House due to overwhelming player population, spam, and other important factors. A bunch of people would then storm the forums how they were betrayed and how it will ruin PoE because it happened to Diablo 3 or some other BS excuse that is fallacious in itself.

3. Nostalgia is nostalgia.

Spoiler

Look, I loved playing a bunch of old games -- Quake and Unreal Tournament come to mind, but I'm NOT going to go back to playing them like I used to ever again. I loved Mario, Sonic, etc... I'm sure Diablo 2 is/was? fun, but I have a hard time believing that any single person that disliked PoE or Diablo 3 actually went back to Diablo 2. Maybe that's just because I don't do that myself.

It's almost like saying... fuck it, Call of duty XYZ sucks balls, I'll go back to CoD:UO. No... no... no. Games change and a lot of times it's for the better. In fact, a lot of people have been telling me that many games are lacking content, but I beg to differ. The amount of content in most games I would never have found is something in any of my NES & Sega games. Enough rambling..

4. Maybe a bunch of you guys were so focused on the things I've stated, that you've forgotten that some of us still like FFA.

Spoiler

I just don't appreciate the attitude a lot of FFA enthusiasts have coming here. "My way or the highway." No, that is NOT okay! I feel like every one of you is here to tell me how FFA is fun and wish to shove it down my throat. I do find FFA fun, but I really don't like anything shoved down my throat at all. I'll decide my diet.

Same goes for a lot of people that showed up in this thread too. Many of them have a group of friends that have come from other games and have this sort of appreciation for instanced loot or whatever, and I find it perfectly okay if they wish to post "GGG PLEASE GIEF ME INSTANCE LOOT KTHX". I also find it okay for GGG to state they will not support instanced loot and be done with it. I do think though it would be a good idea if party leaders could decide for themselves whether they want the party to be FFA, timer-based, have names on loot, or whatever. The key here is "I make the decision". Why? Because FFA isn't something I may always like.

TL;DR I like coke and root beer. I would appreciate the offer to select which beverage I would like to drink. Of course, FFA has this "loot tension" thing that everyone seems to be obsessed about, but personally I think it is overrated. I haven't very often felt I was ever being pressured into grabbing loot. If I ever missed a piece of loot I would shake it off.

Once again, it comes down to preferences and NOT whether or not I am actually trying to avoid this "loot tension" or difficulty you wish to describe it as.

Sidenote: I'll be happy to see FFA return. I hope people use it and not timers all the time. If that is the case, then I suppose I'll be opening up my own fucking party. People will join it I'm sure. I'm really not worried about it AT ALL.

Firstly, I'm not interested in discussing choices, that's not my point. I've already said that.

In order:

1. Hmm, I think we are talking about two different things now.



2. I'm certain they are, but the $$$ they make will be enough to sustain them whether they listen to the majority or not.



3. Yes, your point?



4. The reason we are like that is simple.



Now, I get that doesn't sit well with people, but it's true.

If they were making the game for themselves only they never would have added the timers. They did not want to add timers but did it because of the backlash to the unfairness of FFA.

That is simple evidence contrary to your line of thinking. The devs actions has always spoke in favor of balancing their vision with a great game popular among hardcore gamers of all types.

If they wanted to cater to a super small group this entire game would be nothing but cutthroat/hardcore. That is hardcore without alt F4 transfer me to softcore BS.

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iamstryker wrote:

If they were making the game for themselves only they never would have added the timers. They did not want to add timers but did it because of the backlash to the unfairness of FFA.

That is simple evidence contrary to your line of thinking. The devs actions has always spoke in favor of balancing their vision with a great game popular among hardcore gamers of all types.

If they wanted to cater to a super small group this entire game would be nothing but cutthroat/hardcore. That is hardcore without alt F4 transfer me to softcore BS.

At this point, I feel like just saying "You sound like a bigot" in regards to that last line and being done with it, but I won't.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am fine with that. No matter how wrong I consider it to be.

I just wish GGG wouldn't listen to it. Oh well. Tis life.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

At this point, I feel like just saying "You sound like a bigot" in regards to that last line and being done with it, but I won't.

First of all: What? Don't at all see how you could get to that word from what I wrote there. Maybe your assuming too much?

Second of all: Your round about way of calling me that word was childish. If your going to say something then have the guts to say it plainly instead of trying to cover it up in such a passive aggressive manner.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion and I am fine with that. No matter how wrong I consider it to be.

I just wish GGG wouldn't listen to it. Oh well. Tis life.

Fortunately they did listen to it and more people will enjoy the game as a result without losing anything except a faux of a "competition" that wasn't cutthroat in the least. Oh wait they aren't losing that either because it will still be in the game...

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TremorAcePV wrote:

Firstly, I'm not interested in discussing choices, that's not my point. I've already said that.

And that pretty much sums up the whole of your argument.

The stalwart defenders of FFA loot do so because their entire mantra, their entire worldview, revolves around denying other players the choice. They need to be able to FORCE other people to play their way. I mean, let's face facts: who would actually VOLUNTEER to be a victim? No one; nor will you have much success in a campaign to sell this supposedly thrilling, cut-throat submersion to people who -- brace yourself now -- play games to have fun.

It is this pressing need to force others into your game play style that betrays the heart of your stance, the ultimate expression of the underlying desire to bully and abuse others. Not only must players be subjected to having their loot stolen, they must be compelled to play in an environment where that threat hovers over them constantly, incessantly, gnawing away at their enjoyment of the game, moment by moment.

But this compulsion fails even now, as players CAN choose. They can choose to play solo. Or, sadly, they can choose to not play at all. The people who select these options don't concern you, of course, as they are wholly invisible to you. Your focus is solely fixated on the ever-dwindling population of your victims, acting in the desperate hopes that GGG won't take away your marks. But we -- and, it would seem, GGG -- have a broader perspective.

This discussion is all about choice, TremorAcePV. Avoiding the topic won't avail you.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

Firstly, I'm not interested in discussing choices, that's not my point. I've already said that.

I wasn't discussing them either. I was trying to provide an argument that GGG is doing what they've always done. They are not selling out.

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In order:

1. Hmm, I think we are talking about two different things now.

Spoiler

What do you mean by "play style"? Do you mean how I play the game, in the sense of my build? Or how I play the game, in the sense of my commitment and time? I'm talking about commitment and time and I think you are talking about my build style and such.

Sorry, #1 was sort of a mess. Was in a hurry to write it all out before I went to bed last night. What I was getting at is that GGG hasn't forced difficulty on us in any part of the game. We get to CHOOSE leagues. We get to CHOOSE solo or group play. We get to CHOOSE safe builds over risky builds.

In other words, I'm not seeing where this game was made for the HARDCORE. You can obviously see this game isn't highly casual, but not highly hardcore either. In almost all areas of the game you are able to vary the amount of difficulty you are about to face. For crying out loud, you're even able to give people currency to get you through the game.

Ok, I'm rambling again. *sigh*

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2. I'm certain they are, but the $$$ they make will be enough to sustain them whether they listen to the majority or not.

Spoiler

Hardcore players tend to stay longer than casuals and they are the type to drop major $$$ on games. Casuals only win in this by sheer numbers.

It's selling out to me as they don't *need* to do it, but are anyway. Just how it is.

lol. Wait, wait, wait. You want them to ignore feedback from certain players and only listen to... players similar to yourself?

Question: Who is part of this hardcore group of players you're talking about that stay longer and drop major $$$?

I don't mean disrespect, but that is not an argument at all. It's a statement you are convinced is true because of your bias.

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3. Yes, your point?

Spoiler

My concern with this is simply that, as I've said, GGG has pegged this game as for themselves and D2 people and whatnot. In other words, it's expected to be a certain something, and what they are going towards is beginning to slowly move away from that based on their choices.

Sorry, my point was that nostalgia exists everywhere to me. Once I've left a game for anywhere between 3-5+ years you get to the point where you start remembering old games. You know what? I honestly didn't like every game on my genesis and what not. A lot of games were average at best, but I'll remember only the good things about them. Thus, the point: A lot of my favorite games (yay, nostalgia) were ones that weren't the best in gameplay, nor the best in graphics (at its time or otherwise), yet I remember them to be a lot better than were.

Diablo 2 should also follow that logic. Unless, of course, you just dislike every new game out there and feel like Diablo 2 was the best thing since sliced bread.

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4. The reason we are like that is simple.

It's the same reason I'm bothered now. This game was pegged as one for us. For the people who WANTED FFA only. The minority. Hardcore players.

Oh, YOU are the hardcore. I see.

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That's why we are this way. And that's why we believe it's ok to be this way. We feel defensive to people who want to take away what little we have.

If you can spare the time, can you describe what it is that is being taken away here? FFA is returning, is it not?

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I'm going to keep mentioning it, as it's exactly what is happening. Stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. There are plenty of other games out there with FFA and other options. Leave this one alone.

This also is not an argument.

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You'll decide your diet? Alrighty then, choose what games you play. Don't come to a game and say "I want to take away some of the things that makes this game unique. The thing that is what makes it for the players it was made for. Just so I have even MORE options when I already have plenty as is in the form of other games."

Do you understand game design? I'm not going to say I'm an expert by any means, but... this line of thinking is not good. No, I understand game design when it comes to restrictions. It typically makes sense. This just does not.

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That's what you and others like you are doing and nothing will change it.

Nope.

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Now, I get that doesn't sit well with people, but it's true.

Because you say it is true.

Just some thoughts:

1. If they were to making a game they wanted to play themselves they were going to play it only by themself and with close friends aka the game wont be open to public.

But the game is public. It is open to all kinds of audience. It is open to both praise and criticism. It is open to feedback. Feddback given not only by the slef-entitled pathethic so called "hardcorers" but also by prosumers and consumers. By all.

So stop the crap with this "argument" because it's bulshit.


2. Stop making bets and taking high risks with the dev's money.
It's not your money to decide what you want to do with them, if it's enough or not.
It's not your company so you can decide where you'd take it.
Only the devs have access to accounting, income, expenses and stuff like that so don't you so called pathetic self-entitled "hardcorer" make assumptions on how much money they have or how your only pathetic "hardcorer' money will be enough to support the company and the game just fine.

3. There are hardcore players that don't like ffa-loot. Yes, hardcore.
But you're saying that if someone doesnt like ffa or if someone agrees with loot-options they aren't hardcore anymore? The game suddenly is not for him "hardcoress" anymore?
Comedy, i tell you ;)

All i see lately in this topic are some pathetic beings who dream they are so "hardcore" and go to inconceivably lenghts in proving to be even more sick-pathetic.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

If they were making the game for themselves only they never would have added the timers. They did not want to add timers but did it because of the backlash to the unfairness of FFA.

That is simple evidence contrary to your line of thinking. The devs actions has always spoke in favor of balancing their vision with a great game popular among hardcore gamers of all types.

If they wanted to cater to a super small group this entire game would be nothing but cutthroat/hardcore. That is hardcore without alt F4 transfer me to softcore BS.

At this point, I feel like just saying "You sound like a bigot" in regards to that last line and being done with it, but I won't.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am fine with that. No matter how wrong I consider it to be.

I just wish GGG wouldn't listen to it. Oh well. Tis life.

WTF? Bigot?

Bigot: person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance

I would say that the person who wants to force their own playstyle on everyone and calls anyone who wants options a whiny baby would be MUCH MUCH more of a bigot there sir. I would say Vooodu has shown that he is a major bigot, and you are not far off with your recent ramblings.