Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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EgypZee wrote:

Does anyone here realize how unbelievably simple it is to make friends and add them to your list?

Some quick suggestions:

1)Play solo, build up some wealth so you are not in a position you need every drop
2)Make a new char and look for group games – preferably 1-2 other people (easier to see whoes taking what)
3)Do not take other peoples drops. Share, be nice - chat - make a joke. Let idiots take stuff, then avoid them or kick them or ask them to stop politely… whatever
4)When they don’t take your drop when it’s something valuable, add them to your friends list 99% of the time they will happily accept

After a while, you will have dozens of people on your list that respect you.

Someone has never played League of Legends or any other FTP game. Go ahead, fire up LoL and see how many games it takes before you find a decent human being. You are way more likely to hit a ton of shithead players before you find a reasonable human. Having to shift through a huge pile of shit to find a few decent people is just not something worth the effort and pain.

Having to police a game and constantly watch people if they are stealing loot or not is not a fun thing to do. I want to actually play the game, not be a hall monitor.

Making friends can be done regardless of loot, and should not be a driving factor to befriend someone. You shouldn't be friends with someone solely because they don't take your items, you should be friends with someone because you like them as a person.

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EgypZee wrote:

Also, what’s wrong with all you “anti-ffa” loot protesters exchanging information and all playing nice with each other?

Here is the thing, people that want to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game and be shitheads will always be shitheads. They would actively seek out groups like this and cause harm to them simply because they are terrible human beings. If you have some large guild/group of people like this ninjas and trolls would flock to them just to get their jollies by trolling people.

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Xaxyx wrote:

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Estoroth wrote:

1. Developer white-knighting.

Admittedly, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you elaborate?

I guess one definition could be that it's the phenomenon where some people take it upon themselves to defend the developers actions and opinions, regardless of what these are, to the point where any criticism or perceived second-guessing is automatically, immediately and fervently shot down.

Don't get me wrong here. I think it's great that the developers are strong willed and have a clear vision for the game. It's sort of like musicians who keep producing the music they love and have a passion for, even though they know it's niche and not optimal from a cash flow perspective.

The problem here (as I see it) is that the number of "diablo clones" out there, while sometimes described as being almost countless, are actually very few if you are concerned about quality. That's why I find it frustrating to see this game get needlessly (IMHO) reduced from it's full potential.

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Dinin wrote:

Someone has never played League of Legends or any other FTP game. Go ahead, fire up LoL and see how many games it takes before you find a decent human being. You are way more likely to hit a ton of shithead players before you find a reasonable human. Having to shift through a huge pile of shit to find a few decent people is just not something worth the effort and pain.

To be fair though, LoL has the worst community in existance. To some degree, it will be easier to find worthwhile friends in PoE, by comparison. A small degree. But better than LoL.

Now I want to go jump in a bunch of PoE pugs and see if anyone ever tells me I'm "so bad just uninstall."

But yes, LoL is an excellent reference for how bad it can get.

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Estoroth wrote:

I guess one definition could be that it's the phenomenon where some people take it upon themselves to defend the developers actions and opinions, regardless of what these are, to the point where any criticism or perceived second-guessing is automatically, immediately and fervently shot down.

Oh, that. I tend to call that "fanboyism". There does seem to be a thin thread of that to be found here in this, uh, thread.

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Don't get me wrong here. I think it's great that the developers are strong willed and have a clear vision for the game. It's sort of like musicians who keep producing the music they love and have a passion for, even though they know it's niche and not optimal from a cash flow perspective.

Yupyup. I've said as much myself.

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The problem here (as I see it) is that the number of "diablo clones" out there, while sometimes described as being almost countless, are actually very few if you are concerned about quality. That's why I find it frustrating to see this game get needlessly (IMHO) reduced from it's full potential.

Indeed. This game is great; but it could be SO MUCH more greaterer. I just can't grasp the whole shoot-self-in-foot routine. Unless they're just against allocated loot in principle; but I could never bring myself to believe that, and evidence thankfully indicates that this isn't the case.

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moikpei wrote:

To be fair though, LoL has the worst community in existance. To some degree, it will be easier to find worthwhile friends in PoE, by comparison. A small degree. But better than LoL.

Now I want to go jump in a bunch of PoE pugs and see if anyone ever tells me I'm "so bad just uninstall."

But yes, LoL is an excellent reference for how bad it can get.

LOL has more or less the community of a typical competitive F2P game.

"The feedback is really important - we're not trying to upset players. It's just that we feel it substantially weakens the game if there isn't appropriate item tension."

It looks like Chris said this recently? I'm going to assume he did, its consistent with previous comments.

I'm going to respond to it in a respectful non confrontational manner. Chris is great, i'm only here because he made the best ARPG ever.

1. Chris please help us feel like the feedback is important. We feel very isolated and unheard in this thread without ever getting a dev in here to give a concise explanation of the devs thoughts on the subject. As a result everyone has to fill in the blanks and guess how you guys are thinking. I feel like it causes unneeded tension and anger. If you guys feel like you will never make changes for us then please tell us and I for one will stop complaining. Its your game and I am only in here to give my feedback. If nothing will ever come of this feedback then the game would be better off if the arguments stopped.

2. We do not understand how it weakens the game. Our perspective is that the game is weakened the way that it is now. Players actively avoid public games where it would be fun for them to mingle in a stress free social setting. We don't see the "item tension" idea really doing much in the game. We see it do two things 1) Get people who don't like it upset and avoiding social settings 2) People who like it do not use the system to provide item tension, they like the system for very different reasons.

Thanks for reading.

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Xaxyx wrote:

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Planetsurvival wrote:

It seems still the thread goes on...

I talked with Chris recently, and the summary was this:
"If theres enough interest, GGG will maybe consider Non-FFA leagues".

Lets show GGG that Non-FFA is an option many people want and need to enjoy this game! :)

I've been mulling over what's the most intelligent way to go about that task, but admittedly I'm unsure. I really don't want to be the idiot who's standing in the middle of town during the Open Beta going "Sign my petition! Click here! Sign my petition! Click here!"

It would be superfabulicious if the devs themselves championed such a cause (that cause being, polling the populace). I'm going to try exploring that venue and seeing how many bricks hit me in the face.

Maybe we should wait until after open beta and simply make a thread asking for people who are interested in the league to reply.

For people who don't go to the thread we can simply let them know in global that its there (without spamming or being annoying about it).

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EgypZee wrote:

Does anyone here realize how unbelievably simple it is to make friends and add them to your list?

Some quick suggestions:

1)Play solo, build up some wealth so you are not in a position you need every drop
2)Make a new char and look for group games – preferably 1-2 other people (easier to see whoes taking what)
3)Do not take other peoples drops. Share, be nice - chat - make a joke. Let idiots take stuff, then avoid them or kick them or ask them to stop politely… whatever
4)When they don’t take your drop when it’s something valuable, add them to your friends list 99% of the time they will happily accept

After a while, you will have dozens of people on your list that respect you.

Also, what’s wrong with all you “anti-ffa” loot protesters exchanging information and all playing nice with each other?

1) I already do that, for reasons other than being able to not worry in a group. Besides, I don't want EVERY drop when I'm grouping, just exactly my share; no more, no less.

3) There's no fun to be had, AT ALL, in tracking other players behaviour and character names. I want the game to make that not necessary, and this can currently be done by flipping a single switch: timer = 999s

4) I do not find tracking names of characters enjoyable, nor would I enjoy having to watch them in succeeding group games, in the hopes that they continue their acceptable behaviour. The game can make all this unnecessary with a single switch.

5) Claiming to be a 'play nice' person isn't going to cut it. I'm still going to have to do #3 and #4.

I don't think an 999 second timer is a good idea. The current system has strengths that should not be discarded. I think adding to the base timer and making it flexible based upon surviving monsters is the best way.

Right now it is very easy to share loot that you do not want. Removing the timer or extending too far will slow down the pace of loot allocation and team building.

I agree with Chris assessment that a fully instanced loot system would be bad for the game. I along with others have presented suggestions that would reduce player frustration while preserving this core mechanic.

If they increase the difficulty of co-op and adjust the loot grouping will be as enjoyable as single player.

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wrathmar wrote:

I don't think an 999 second timer is a good idea. The current system has strengths that should not be discarded. I think adding to the base timer and making it flexible based upon surviving monsters is the best way.

Right now it is very easy to share loot that you do not want. Removing the timer or extending too far will slow down the pace of loot allocation and team building.

I agree with Chris assessment that a fully instanced loot system would be bad for the game. I along with others have presented suggestions that would reduce player frustration while preserving this core mechanic.

If they increase the difficulty of co-op and adjust the loot grouping will be as enjoyable as single player.

I think its been said many many many times why FFA is just adding frustration and annoyence for people that just wanna group in public teams for zone clearing they cant manage on their own or when they feel like socializing or whatever.

This is 2013, Instanced/Infinite Timer Looting is available to pick.
It will reduce frustration and annoyence and add *fun* to PoE.
And if theres seperate *bought* or added Non-FFA leagues to house people that just dont like FFA looting?
Whats the harm?

The reason i took a break from PoE was exactly because i got bored of soloing, yet i felt FFA just annoyed me so i didnt have *fun* playing with other people.
Sure i played with friends, sure it was fun sometimes but the constant loot i got that my friend should have gotten was making me get a feel for how bad it would have been if it was a public game with loot greedy jackasses.
And i always had to ask if my friend wanted loot.
It added 5 min of dropping items on ground to converse on which items we wanted, atleast that is what i remember.
In short, it ended up being more about loot distribution rather then fireballing and/or slashing and having *fun*.
I dont mind loot sharing, but FFA setting leaves me getting all the currency items and such small things and they are easily forgotten when my friends and i take 10 min town-break to drink water/eat sandwiches and distribute loot.
Hmm i cant exactly formulate what i wanna say, but FFA looting made even playing with friends un-fun at times.
Sorry if im unclear.


Despite that i still felt that playing with friends was fun (despite constant loot issues i ran into).
If the very Loot setting (which should be player choosen, its 2013... not 1995 or whatever) is what is forced on me and makes the game un-fun for me and many others, the solution of seperate *bought* or added non-FFA leagues is a win-win for both FFA and Non-FFA people.
Even if we Non-FFA people have to *pay for it*, it still would be something id play.
And never even touch upon FFA leagues whatsoever as that is exactly what makes me wanna quit playing.

I read the prisoners dilemma and i agree upon the very flawed system in which i either just play "With friends" or play as a "OMG LOOOT MIIIINEEE YESS LOOOT PRECIOUUSS LOOT!11!!1" attitude.


And no, if the Non-FFA leagues have *nerfed drop rate and made harder to compensate for whatever reason people think up* then i and many other will simply quit this game.
How difficult is it to just let us Non-FFAers have *fun* without imposing penalties on things we feel just makes the gameplay acceptable.
If we pay for a custom leagues or if GGG just adds SC&HC leagues with forced Non-FFA rules would work too because its *fun* to play with such forced Non-FFA rules to completely avoid loot hungry greedy jackasses.

Please, just let us have that without ruining it...

Lets fastforward to a future with forced FFA loot:
Non-FFAers will try to maintain white lists and black lists.
Before a public Non-FFA party get going theyll check if everyone is whitelisted, and kick all non-whitelisted and all blacklisted.
Yet PoE being F2P makes such lists very unreliable.

How does this sound? Fractured community? Hateful social setting?

I know i wont be around if this is the future of PoE:

PartyLeader: "Ok let me check the whitelist and blacklist... hmm *kicks 3 party members, 2 not being whitelisted at all and 1 being black listed*"
PartyLeader: "LF3M Whitelist only"