Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

For once Chris (and i think it will be this only) i ddont agree at all

In addition to all what have been said for the individual looting i'd say this:

For me its not fun at all to be "on alert" for items, i just feel myself so greedy when doing this and i'am not like that at all, for me its rly a "bad behavior"

So for me either way have a rendom distribution or a total separate looting maybe with a bit less % of good items

I really dont see why GGG is making a so big deal about that, its just ruining the team play for now, you have everytime to explain to ppl how to share or to act like a SoB ect

There will be PvP to play against other ppl, but by the current system you are just forcing ppl who want to cooperate to play against each others, and no one will accept that (proof is that the teamplay is dead right now)

I really hope you will take a decision fast

Cheers :)

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taekvideo wrote:

Have you been playing the same game I have?
Everyone in beta groups up for chaos just to keep the portal open, then create separate instances to solo in.

Apparently not; I've been playing Hardcore, and at the time I posted, the top of the ladder had only barely reached chaos, never mind finding groups for there.

I might as well throw in my two cents.

While I respect your desire to create a competitive game, where players have to judge whether or not it's worth trusting someone that at a seconds notice could show himself/herself to be a cutthroat, the FFA system kills this for me.

Why? It is because I do not want to party with anyone if I have to go through the hassle of people stealing the loot from under my nose. Also; playing with friends is still a hassle if both players need the same item, and rolling a die only helps alleviate the problem so much.

So, instead of creating a game where I compete and cooperate with other players, you have created a game where I ignore other players beyond the chat and trading system.

I do not believe this is what you wanted to create, and in the long run that also means I'll quit playing this game in favour of a game where I can play with my friends and randoms without a FFA loot system.

And the new way of sharing loot you've created does not cut it for me. It's better than just FFA to be sure, but it's in no way a substitute or an alternative to individual loot. I can understand that some might want to keep the FFA system in place, you the developers seem to be a particularly strong force behind this, but it’s a game breaker to me in terms of playing with others. I loved Diablo 2 back in the days, but there were many faults with it, and the loot system was definitely one of them. If I could have a league or an option to turn off FFA and instead use a system that splits the loot automatically, I would be infinitely happier.

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mjkittredge wrote:

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Chris wrote:

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tpapp157 wrote:

An allocation time more on the order of 5 seconds may be more reasonable.

The idea is that there's still an adrenaline rush and that the player has to be alert and aware of what items are dropping.

One of the problems I see with that is people will spend more time worrying about drops than on fighting monsters.

People who do that would run a great risk of dying, so they'll probably learn not to do it. This is especially true at higher levels where even great builds are challenged.

That quote from Chris goes a long way towards explaining why they don't want an individual loot system. It's not nearly as exciting when your loot is just handed to you.

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Leoros wrote:

Why? It is because I do not want to party with anyone if I have to go through the hassle of people stealing the loot from under my nose. Also; playing with friends is still a hassle if both players need the same item, and rolling a die only helps alleviate the problem so much.

So, instead of creating a game where I compete and cooperate with other players, you have created a game where I ignore other players beyond the chat and trading system.

I totally agree with this and the rest of his post.

For me the loot system is totally killing teamplay.
I have only be playing solo until I could invite a friend to play with him so I didn't have to be worried about ninja.

I just don't understand why looting should be a form of competition and a possible source of grief when it's supposed to be a REWARD for defeating strong foes.

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Chris wrote:

It's important to us that Path of Exile has a cut-throat feel where players are not only competing against monsters, but also their fellow players.

Disappointing. I was strongly considering abandoning Diablo 3 in favor of this game, but with such a completely backwards comment as this, I've changed my mind.

What possible benefit could there be to pitting players against one another? If other players are enemies, then I either I endure drama, rage, and constant swearing or I avoid playing with others. Which of those options does the dev team think enhances the game? Do you seriously think drama and rage are why people play online games together?

Not even EVE Online promotes interpersonal conflict to this degree, and EVE Online is a game where players are allowed to scam, defraud, and steal from one another, even if the items swindled were purchased with real money. At least in that game the conflict encourages players to join forces and work together as a means to compete against one another. Here there is no such comradery. Players are encouraged to screw everyone else over.

I'm not that interested in a lot of the stuff Guild Wars 2 is doing, but one thing they got perfectly is that playing with other players should be more desirable than playing alone. If you think that playing with other players should be undesirable, well then I'm sorry but that's the complete opposite of what I want an ONLINE game to be.

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Skivverus wrote:

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DieKao wrote:

FFA loot system : NO ONE WILL GROUP WITH OTHER PEOPLE, because grouping is not incentivised. It's punished, you will have other people grab your loot. People will be hostile to each other in general because it's every man for him self.

This statement is not supported by the evidence.

Plenty of players team up in the beta at the moment, and I'm not even sure the mitigating system Chris put forward has been implemented.

That's because there's nothing to lose in a Beta. All the items will be deleted anyway, and the biggest reward at that stage of the game is your character level, not your gear. Once players start getting higher up and see their items ninja'd due to circumstances beyond their control, or worse - circumstances exacerbated by their allies (use an ice wall to stop ranged players from getting their item), then that's when you'll see players stop grouping.

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zombichef wrote:

Sorry, IMO FFA is fine the way it is...It aint broke so no reason in fixing it. If people want loot they will find ways of getting it.

Of course they'll find ways of getting it. It's called soloing, and it's exactly what we DON'T want.



EDIT:
Oh wow this game has MAGIC FIND?! Oh boy Magic Find can go screw itself. Finding an item with fantastic overall stats but no magic find and realizing that the item is useless is about the biggest disappointment you could probably bake into a game. It takes the excitement out of finding cool items because they don't have magic find and are thus worthless, and doesn't put any excitement back because its effect is irrelevant to the gameplay. (You found a good item with magic find? Whoop de doo now you can farm more.) Magic Find is nothing but frustration unless its carefully balanced in such a way that it can't be sacrificed in exchange for combat ability.

Magic find gives players the choice of either having fun now with their good items that have no magic find, or having less enjoyable gameplay in exchange for greatly increased loot efficiency. Why would you make players choose between having unpleasant gameplay and getting good drops!?


ugh... this game is an even worse disappointment than magic find. So many good decisions annihilated by a few horrendous decisions.

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Strill wrote:

ugh... this game is an even worse disappointment than magic find. So many good decisions annihilated by a few horrendous decisions.

Maybe you should actually experience these decisions in action before you conclude that they are all horrendous. The conclusions you're drawing don't necessarily correlate to what happens in the game.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

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Strill wrote:

ugh... this game is an even worse disappointment than magic find. So many good decisions annihilated by a few horrendous decisions.

Maybe you should actually experience these decisions in action before you conclude that they are all horrendous. The conclusions you're drawing don't necessarily correlate to what happens in the game.

You know what? I don't need to. You know why? Because I already experienced it. Diablo II used the exact same loot system and had magic find as well. Even Vanilla WoW had tons of ninja looting problems in spite of the rolling system it included to try and prevent the aforementioned problems.

You think maybe some players don't care for a reaction time game determining who gets loot? You think maybe some players just want to play the game without stopping everything they're doing every time an item drops? You think some players want to play the game in a way that's most sound for tactical reasons, not most sound for loot grabbing reasons?

You think maybe some players don't care for having to bring skills specifically to fuck over your own team so you can steal the loot? Because if the devs really intend it to be a competition between players then dammit I'll show them how that game is played. The best strategy is to be dead weight. Attack as little as possible, focusing instead on watching what every enemy's hp is. Try to just make it look like you're attacking without actually accomplishing anything. Hopefully your lack of group contribution will get your party members killed, resulting in less competition for any loot that drops. For skills you would focus on a useless level 1 curse to overwrite whatever curses your allies rely on (hopefully getting them killed), phase run to get to the loot as fast as possible, and frost wall to keep ranged allies from getting to the loot before you, or until the timer runs out. (in other words, ranged are still screwed) You should NEVER get the passives that extend charges to your allies.

Oh and if your group complains about it, make sure you get the killing blow on the boss with no Magic Find equipment or support skills just to screw everyone.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

I have nothing against fairness, but individual loot isn't any more fair than FFA. All loot can go to anyone, restricted only by the players' response. It's not like the game automatically gives loot to melee characters. Everyone has a chance to get to it, and when the timed system is implemented ranged characters will have the presumed disadvantages removed.

Every game I've seen with individual loot (Guild Wars 2, Diablo 3) has given each player in a party the same or greater loot rewards that they would have gotten had they defeated that monster solo. I don't see how it could be any more fair than that.

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PoE isn't meant to be a hand-holding, everyone's-a-winner game. It's meant to be hardcore and cutthroat where players are pitted against the world and each other for dominance. FFA loot definitely fits the bill.

You know what the best way to avoid problems with other people stealing your loot is? Play solo. You know what everyone did in Diablo II? Play solo. You know what I don't want to do in an online multiplayer game? Play solo.

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Strill wrote:

You think maybe some players don't care for a reaction time game determining who gets loot? You think maybe some players just want to play the game without stopping everything they're doing every time an item drops? You think some players want to play the game in a way that's most sound for tactical reasons, not most sound for loot grabbing reasons?

You think tactics can't possibly include keeping an eye out for the good items (as opposed to the junk and the stuff not for one's build)?

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Strill wrote:

You think maybe some players don't care for having to bring skills specifically to fuck over your own team so you can steal the loot? Because if the devs really intend it to be a competition between players then dammit I'll show them how that game is played. The best strategy is to be dead weight. Attack as little as possible, focusing instead on watching what every enemy's hp is. Try to just make it look like you're attacking without actually accomplishing anything. Hopefully your lack of group contribution will get your party members killed, resulting in less competition for any loot that drops. For skills you would focus on a useless level 1 curse to overwrite whatever curses your allies rely on (hopefully getting them killed), phase run to get to the loot as fast as possible, and frost wall to keep ranged allies from getting to the loot before you, or until the timer runs out. (in other words, ranged are still screwed) You should NEVER get the passives that extend charges to your allies.

Somehow this just sounds like you're gimping your own drops (and, as presently implemented, your flask charges). That's a lot of trouble to go to for griefing your party, and it won't even get you more loot than if you'd just soloed instead.

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Skivverus wrote:

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Strill wrote:

You think maybe some players don't care for a reaction time game determining who gets loot? You think maybe some players just want to play the game without stopping everything they're doing every time an item drops? You think some players want to play the game in a way that's most sound for tactical reasons, not most sound for loot grabbing reasons?

You think tactics can't possibly include keeping an eye out for the good items (as opposed to the junk and the stuff not for one's build)?

Why does it matter whether it's for your build or not? It's free-for-all loot, so if it's valuable, you should get it. Didn't you read the OP? We're supposed to be cutthroats.

And no, I don't think tactics can possibly include keeping an eye out for the good items because not everyone can play as a tanky melee class. If you're a squishy witch and you see a great item drop, do you run into the middle of all the enemies to grab it, risking death? Well, not if I'm in the party because I'd have you ice walled before you could even get there.

This isn't the only scenario where loot drop tactics conflict with good tactics mind you. Here's a selection:

STR character with Taunt -> Only use taunt to get almost-dead enemies away from allies and over to you. Never use it to save an ally from dying. Even if there aren't any drops, it's better for an ally to die than for you to miss out on a loot drop.

Friendly character fighting the boss, and nearly dead -> Stop attacking! Hopefully the boss will finish him off and get you a greater chance at loot. You can also throw a useless curse on the boss to erase whatever was there before.

Character specialized in Endurance charges? NEVER under ANY circumstances get the passive which shares endurance charges! If the charges save a party member from death that could mean them getting the drop!

And I'm sure I could think of plenty more. So in other words, I stand by my statement.

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Strill wrote:

You think maybe some players don't care for having to bring skills specifically to fuck over your own team so you can steal the loot? Because if the devs really intend it to be a competition between players then dammit I'll show them how that game is played. The best strategy is to be dead weight. Attack as little as possible, focusing instead on watching what every enemy's hp is. Try to just make it look like you're attacking without actually accomplishing anything. Hopefully your lack of group contribution will get your party members killed, resulting in less competition for any loot that drops. For skills you would focus on a useless level 1 curse to overwrite whatever curses your allies rely on (hopefully getting them killed), phase run to get to the loot as fast as possible, and frost wall to keep ranged allies from getting to the loot before you, or until the timer runs out. (in other words, ranged are still screwed) You should NEVER get the passives that extend charges to your allies.

Somehow this just sounds like you're gimping your own drops (and, as presently implemented, your flask charges). That's a lot of trouble to go to for griefing your party, and it won't even get you more loot than if you'd just soloed instead.

More players to leech off of means faster drops. The goal isn't to grief your party, it's to maximize loot drops for yourself. If that involves griefing your party then so be it.

The essential strategy is that when one of those bosses appears you should try to kill as many party members as you can, then block off the path to the loot for the rest of them. In the meantime you should only do just enough to convince those around you that you're not a bot and focus entirely on drops. That way you won't get caught preoccupied when good loot drops, but still won't get kicked for leeching like you rightfully should. You get the advantage of faster clear speeds, without having to worry about sharing loot.