Crafting-- It's not just about the Economy

"

Undon3 wrote:

Ouch...

Kinda owned :)

Now get busy hoping mods won't report you to support, or devs won't see this...

actually, I really do hope the devs see this. it's a good indication of just how utterly terrible the current crafting system is (if they didn't figure out by now from the countless threads about it), when cheating/botting/buying currency seems to be the only way.

I've played hundreds of hours. got one character to level 70+ and another close to end-game. farmed the same damn areas over and over again like a damn human bot - and never did have enough currency to craft even one of the items he posted.
don't I "deserve" a godly 6-link? an epic amulet? a super-bow? not even one?

oh who am I kidding. no they won't get the message even if they do see this.
even if they see this a thousand times.

because flipping an unfair coin that always falls on heads, and waiting for it to fall on tails - is "working as intended" as far as GGG are concerned.
you don't like it? go buy a fair coin. or better yet - go buy what you'd get had the coin actually fallen on tails after a million tosses.

"

Undon3 wrote:

Quick points:

- if GGG is to "fix" this system, they first need to believe it is broken; interviews and posts indicate they do not
- "crafting" is not difficult - this should be a word uttered with respect in games, for challenge is rather hard to find these days. It is just random :)
- "crafting" is also hardly crafting, this is misleading. It's just plain ol' gambling.

Other than that, your feedback would be rather more useful on one of the already big topics on "crafting". Might get lost, true, but it will also grow and bump that topic (nothing you posted is new in any way, this has been discussed for weeks...), and for GGG to be impressed, you need some 900 pages of criticism...

...

I agree with what you say. I have posted elsewhere too of course. If GGG doesn't get it I have a simple suggestion for them... play the damn game from scratch like we all do and figure it out... it won't take long until you get it.

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

Undon3 wrote:

Ouch...

Kinda owned :)

Now get busy hoping mods won't report you to support, or devs won't see this...

actually, I really do hope the devs see this. it's a good indication of just how utterly terrible the current crafting system is (if they didn't figure out by now from the countless threads about it), when cheating/botting/buying currency seems to be the only way.

I've played hundreds of hours. got one character to level 70+ and another close to end-game. farmed the same damn areas over and over again like a damn human bot - and never did have enough currency to craft even one of the items he posted.
don't I "deserve" a godly 6-link? an epic amulet? a super-bow? not even one?

oh who am I kidding. no they won't get the message even if they do see this.
even if they see this a thousand times.

because flipping an unfair coin that always falls on heads, and waiting for it to fall on tails - is "working as intended" as far as GGG are concerned.
you don't like it? go buy a fair coin. or better yet - go buy what you'd get had the coin actually fallen on tails after a million tosses.

Answer to this;

profit trading > farming in all the games.

I realized it at diablo 2 some 10 years back.

If you play the first 2 weeks of release of the game, you have a chance with farming.

After that, profit trade all the way, if you really want to be rich/well equipped we.

You started late dude, and just farmed, you are complaining about wrong things.

"

FitzGX wrote:

Wrong.

I started from nothing when ob started. Get ur facts right.

Can prove it to you if i needed to, think I dont need to.



And my point wasnt that.

My point was that with clever mind and hard trying you can success on crafting.

I really did start from scratch, why the fuck would anybody doubt it when ive done it for freakin 4 months.

Anyways the discussion wasnt about me, it was about crafting overally.

I understand the nature of your repsonse here and comnpletely agree you should not have to defend anything you have done to anyone.

That said I think there is a thought/point here which solicits some debate and reply;

"My point was that with clever mind and hard trying you can success on crafting."

I don't care how clever anyone is, with sufficient raw material (in this case quality whites and plenty of orbs) one cannot craft anything worthwhile consistently.

Secondly individual success in any gambling system does not equate to the balance or fairness of the system. Unless there are pervasive posts which indicate crafting is good and needs no improvement then any individual success is really just luck, albeit based on persistence or not. I really wonder if the cost of achieving a very decent 6 link was examined how fair we would feel that cost and time invested to craft it were in comparison to the item itself?

"

FitzGX wrote:

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

Undon3 wrote:

Ouch...

Kinda owned :)

Now get busy hoping mods won't report you to support, or devs won't see this...

actually, I really do hope the devs see this. it's a good indication of just how utterly terrible the current crafting system is (if they didn't figure out by now from the countless threads about it), when cheating/botting/buying currency seems to be the only way.

I've played hundreds of hours. got one character to level 70+ and another close to end-game. farmed the same damn areas over and over again like a damn human bot - and never did have enough currency to craft even one of the items he posted.
don't I "deserve" a godly 6-link? an epic amulet? a super-bow? not even one?

oh who am I kidding. no they won't get the message even if they do see this.
even if they see this a thousand times.

because flipping an unfair coin that always falls on heads, and waiting for it to fall on tails - is "working as intended" as far as GGG are concerned.
you don't like it? go buy a fair coin. or better yet - go buy what you'd get had the coin actually fallen on tails after a million tosses.

Answer to this;

profit trading > farming in all the games.

I realized it at diablo 2 some 10 years back.

If you play the first 2 weeks of release of the game, you have a chance with farming.

After that, profit trade all the way, if you really want to be rich/well equipped we.

You started late dude, and just farmed, you are complaining about wrong things.

If the point is that farming is not good after the first weeks of release then I think it adds more validity to the premise that the crafting system needs repair.

Trading is not for everyone nor should it be required to be. To me that is just a another symptom of inadequately thought through development unless it was stated as an integral preface of the game play, which in this case of course it was not. Trading and crafting seem to be at best distractions for development rather than core to the game, if they weren't would they not have addressed them by now?

"

FitzGX wrote:

Answer to this;

profit trading > farming in all the games.

I realized it at diablo 2 some 10 years back.

If you play the first 2 weeks of release of the game, you have a chance with farming.

After that, profit trade all the way, if you really want to be rich/well equipped we.

You started late dude, and just farmed, you are complaining about wrong things.

1) I've been playing regularly since the start of Open Beta, but not 10 hours a day because I have a job and a family.

2) I've played Diablo 2, and 1, and almost any RPG and aRPG before, between and since. never did I need to buy stuff. to "pay to win". and I promptly left any game which tried to push me in that direction (see: Diablo 3).
true, I didn't get the uber-epic-super-rare gear - well I did. in Median XL :) - but I did get enough for maintaining some degree of fun from game-play. a feeling my efforts are worth something, no matter how small.

3) trade isn't my cup of tea. anything beyond swapping stuff with friends and party members to be exact. I can't "haggle over the price" in chat, and I can't rip people off.
if that's what it takes to be "rich" in this game - I'd rather quit it right now.
I recently sold a Unique to someone for a Divine Orb and 3 Chaos, when it was hardly worth the Divine.
I found him and gave him his 3 Chaos back. despite the fact it left me with just 2 Chaos.

"

Pavshaus wrote:

"

FitzGX wrote:

Wrong.

I started from nothing when ob started. Get ur facts right.

Can prove it to you if i needed to, think I dont need to.



And my point wasnt that.

My point was that with clever mind and hard trying you can success on crafting.

I really did start from scratch, why the fuck would anybody doubt it when ive done it for freakin 4 months.

Anyways the discussion wasnt about me, it was about crafting overally.

I understand the nature of your repsonse here and comnpletely agree you should not have to defend anything you have done to anyone.

That said I think there is a thought/point here which solicits some debate and reply;

"My point was that with clever mind and hard trying you can success on crafting."

I don't care how clever anyone is, with sufficient raw material (in this case quality whites and plenty of orbs) one cannot craft anything worthwhile consistently.

Secondly individual success in any gambling system does not equate to the balance or fairness of the system. Unless there are pervasive posts which indicate crafting is good and needs no improvement then any individual success is really just luck, albeit based on persistence or not. I really wonder if the cost of achieving a very decent 6 link was examined how fair we would feel that cost and time invested to craft it were in comparison to the item itself?

I have experience to say that the payback of materials/time spent is bad. On bad runs, ive spent 40-60 ex currency in some hours getting pure shit out.

And 99% here cant afford that. I'm not saying it proud aloud, what I mean is;

Theres way too many items in the game compared to what stats you are averagely rolling. When open beta started, there was a chance with crafting, because there wasnt lot of orbs out.

Another reason; There's no real PvP in the game. PvP is what makes crafting the real deal in any game.

Current end-game doesnt need diamond items to success, which has good and bad sides. In my opinion its fair for average player but instead they should invest in pvp side of the game. That would get them surely more players and get players like me to actually play the game.

What I enjoy in any game is trading/pvping.



Currently, it probably takes about 5-10 ex materials to get item of 1-2 ex out.

Though it depends what you craft. Is it linked, what kind of item etc. Most people try to get stuff for themselves, its 99% times not likely to happen.

I craft for other people, thats how theres a chance to actually get something worth the time. It's just my way,

Now, I apologize for the offtopic been made here, I didn't start it, I didn't want it.

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

FitzGX wrote:

Answer to this;

profit trading > farming in all the games.

I realized it at diablo 2 some 10 years back.

If you play the first 2 weeks of release of the game, you have a chance with farming.

After that, profit trade all the way, if you really want to be rich/well equipped we.

You started late dude, and just farmed, you are complaining about wrong things.

1) I've been playing regularly since the start of Open Beta, but not 10 hours a day because I have a job and a family.

2) I've played Diablo 2, and 1, and almost any RPG and aRPG before, between and since. never did I need to buy stuff. to "pay to win". and I promptly left any game which tried to push me in that direction (see: Diablo 3).
true, I didn't get the uber-epic-super-rare gear - well I did. in Median XL :) - but I did get enough for maintaining some degree of fun from game-play. a feeling my efforts are worth something, no matter how small.

3) trade isn't my cup of tea. anything beyond swapping stuff with friends and party members to be exact. I can't "haggle over the price" in chat, and I can't rip people off.
if that's what it takes to be "rich" in this game - I'd rather quit it right now.
I recently sold a Unique to someone for a Divine Orb and 3 Chaos, when it was hardly worth the Divine.
I found him and gave him his 3 Chaos back. despite the fact it left me with just 2 Chaos.

Ripoffing, I have a same feeling about it than you.

Fair profit? I can understand that.

My point of view.

Trading takes it's time after all, and it's not that easy some might think. I've spent about 4 hours a day for last 4 months. And that's all been crafting/trading.

I don't even stash the currency. Whenever I get currency, it goes right again to crafting. I suppose some would call it dedication. My goal is to hit top items in this game, sadly, those aren't needed/possible to afford for normal people. Again, the point of PvP comes to play.

Alrite I've spent enough time explaining one view of mine. Good luck for all of you and if someone needs crafting tips, whisper/pm me.



Edit: Oh and diablo 2? I played it for long time. Start > quit > start and so on..

The last seasons were horrible. Bots ruin the game in a week after reset. Its not enjoyable besides pvp. And PvP there isnt enjoyable mostly because of jerks ruining it. And again, average player can never hit the items there to pvp.

I haven't played in well over a month. I was waiting for some sort of crafting or trading patch. Looks like that isn't happening. It looks like GGG is still doing small bug fixes and making more useless gems and micro-transactions.

I don't need to expound on how a game based on gambling is not fun. For those of you who still defend the orb/currency system as it is for being "hardcore" or "difficult" are plain deluded. It takes no skill to roll a dice.

It's really disappointing because the game showed so much promise and potential, but then you try to run maps or get better gear, and there's no way to do it besides starting a new character or spending endless hours clicking one orb at a time.

Oh yeah, trading is still broken, so that's not a counter-balance to insane crafting. Basically, it's the rich ripping off the poor because market information is not transparent. The developers seem to think this is part of the "cut-throat" theme, when really it is just an excuse to be lazy and not implement a proper trading system.

Trading is not better than farming in all the online games... stop deceiving yourselves. There are games out there (that you probably hate) which actually encourage players to go out, and farm, preferably hard, challenging bosses for best results, and yes, trade the unneeded surplus - and why not?

This is exactly how it should be:

Two systems, in parallel, balanced against each other, both being enjoyable and unique in their own way.

So let me know guys, honestly, which do you prefer...

- killing hard mobs for good drops, still with RNG involved, sell what's not needed, be able to gear up exclusively from farming, trading being a nice, optional treat to get the gear slots where RNG messes with you equipped, crafting also optional to alleviate RNG drops
- killing faceroll mobs for full RNG lame drops, hardly be able to sell what's not needed (i.e. vendor even decent gear for crap shards...), hardly any currency, trading needed if you want to gear up efficiently, "crafting" a non-efficient completely RNG business

RNG, RNG, RNG, our game is too short, let's make the good stuff in it 0.001% per pop so you won't run out of objectives.

And why not? It's easier than to add more content.