You know what happens when your Reflexes turn to Iron?

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Iscariot013 wrote:

How about a keystone that prevents 1 hit kills and gives the evasion character time to escape if they are paying attention.

Yes, I suggested this once. It would be terribly useful for Hardcore, and to help with network lag. I've noticed I often die during lag spikes, even just a 500ms lag spike, because the game is very fast.

The Amazon passives in Diablo II were more reliable than Evasion and Shield Block are, it seems to me. I always had the time to hit escape and "Save & Exit" when things were getting nasty (often times in Diablo II that would mean getting stuck in a corner with exploding monsters blocking the way).

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Skills like "Provides immunity to Chaos damage" shouldn't exist, imho. Game would be easier to balance without unavoidable damage, and without the corresponding "100% avoid that damage" passive.

Evasion mechanic fix suggestion: inverse-combustion-style "charged" system.

Say a ranger has good evasion for his level. His evade chance starts at 80%. For each attack ATTEMPT received in the past 3 seconds, it is multiplied by 0.7 (that's a decrease).

If he gets swarmed and attacked 8 times in 2 seconds, his evasion chance ends up at 80 * 0.7^8 = 4.6%, which stays low in a "rolling" sense based on how many attacks he's taken in the past 3 seconds. Note that since his evasion drops incrementally for each successive attack, the later ones are more likely to connect. Very dead, very quickly.

If he takes two hits (80% evasion, 56% evasion) he has a decent chance of dodging both, and then he reacts by moving his character and tries to keep the rate of incoming attacks low to keep his evasion high, he is rewarded by not dying nearly as much.

Lore-wise this could be justified as "combat exhaustion" or "focus" or similar. Gameplay-wise this keeps dexxer combat dangerous and explosive, with the risk to get swarmed and die still a lot more present than with a giant tank - but it usefully rewards sneakiness/avoidance in combat style.

The evasion stat could influence the base evasion chance, or the window in which attacks taken lower evasion chance, or the multiplier attacks lower evasion by, or some combination of these.

This could be applied as a keystone or to the base evasion stat.

There are possible exploits with single mobs that need to be thought through (make it apply -dodge based on the attacker's attack speed so slow attackers don't get screwed.) Incoming attacks could lower dodge% based on attacker level/damage. Lots of options.

Or maybe this is way too complicated and it will be too much effort to implement. I just think that it captures the feel of "evasion" pretty well.

+50 to Charan. I like the bleeding idea a lot, and as I mentioned in my last thread, there needs to be some sort of change happening here in the Evasion/Dexterity department.

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Iscariot013 wrote:

How about a keystone that prevents 1 hit kills and gives the evasion character time to escape if they are paying attention.

It's great that people are trying to find solutions to the evasion problem, but I really wish people would quit suggesting new keystones as the solution.

Taking a specific keystone should not be what makes evasion viable (this is half the problem with Iron Reflexes as things are, I see lots of people suggest it as the reason why evasion is fine), Evasion should be viable on it's own, and have keystones that change the way it functions based on your play style.

My suggest for improve dex tree is:
Add 5-10 flat hp per character lvl component to acrobatics this fix many problems like spam str and hp passives on melee rangers\duelists builds instead geting dps or evasion also be viable vs chaos innoculation.
Remake iron reflexes to adds 2-3% of evasion rating as flat physical damage for 1h melee weapons and 1-1.5% for 2h and bows instead converting eva to armor. This be viable same as catalise node for phys builds.
Add some eva+armor nodes to dex str side of tree.


At this moment iron reflexes is worst passive in skill tree, thinking only cause iron reflexes we havent combo nodes eva+armor in duelist side while shadow side have eva+es and templar side armor+es. Evasion work good in this game, evasion combined with block or acrobatics works perfect.
Here is video of my ranger in chaos that havent iron reflexes, catalise, CI, and other meta things also using dw phys damage daggers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrfRyQFuEmI&feature=plcp

Defensive stats in this game utility for keeping hp or es. If u havent enough ammount of hp or energy shield, evasion and armor never helps u.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

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zriL wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

It's true that str/armour is the realm of damage reduction, but more specifically, it's the realm of absolute damage reduction -- with Armour, every single incoming source of physical damage is reduced by a percentage.

This is false. Armour doesn't reduce elemental damage or damage over time, while evasion does since you evaded the cause of it.

Every single dexterity thread forgets about this point, thus making them all irrelevant. I've never seen any problem with dexterity and evasion myself.
Now that there are more dot and elemental damage dealer mobs, I ensure that evasion is not weaker than armor, I even believe the opposite.

(ps : I only read the first post)

You might want to re-read the bit you bolded.

And then the bit I italicised.

Oops, my bad. But you are the "bolder" :p

My point is still valid though.

You're saying this right after :

"

I don't think this means that str/armour owns all forms of damage reduction, however.

To which I completely agree. Then why are you trying to give evasion something it already has ?

edit : plus, bleeding already exists (puncture). It's a dot like others. The more dot we'll have in the game, the better evasion will be.

I believe the problem with evasion stems from the life/armor interaction. Since armor provides damage reduction, killing an armored character requires higher damage output from the monsters. On top of that, the armored classes get a generous health pool bonus from strength and generous easy access health nodes. This causes even higher damage spikes to be necessary to kill the armored character (ie, rhoas).

Unfortunately, dexterity/evasions offers no reduction and no health pool bonus, so those massive damage spikes required to kill the marauder are likely going to one-shot the dex character. Reducing the damage output makes armor stronger, and GGG has tweaked it several times, but I think its going to be a really difficult balance. The dex portion of the tree either needs significant life nodes, or nodes that reduce the damage spikes, such as the 15% reduced critical damage nodes, or give dex an bonus to reduced critical damage to smooth the huge spikes required by str/amor design. It doesn't make sense that marauders have such easy access to the crit spike reduction when damage spikes are supposed to armors weakness. Given those, they get both low physical damage neutralization, and high damage reduction from both crit reduction and the benefit of armor, as that just makes it worse.

I personally would prefer a passive bonus to dex being crit damage reduction, or possibly reduced chance to be critical, as I don't really want to add another evasion passive keystone just to make evasion viable. This would help smooth the massive spikes without removing them to the benefit armor.


For example:
Assuming 25000 armor, and a 10000 critical spike, the reduction is only 17.2% resulting in a 8275 hit,
but if there were 40-50% or so (estimate) critical damage reduction, the hit would still kill, at 5-6000 damage as an outlier, but a more normal 5000 damage hit wouldn't, as it would get reduced to 2.5-3000 hit (3500ish for armour). Lower damage non-criticals would have limited/no protection as the weakness, which is armors strength.

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zriL wrote:

You're saying this right after :

"

I don't think this means that str/armour owns all forms of damage reduction, however.

To which I completely agree. Then why are you trying to give evasion something it already has ?

edit : plus, bleeding already exists (puncture). It's a dot like others. The more dot we'll have in the game, the better evasion will be.

I feel like I'm stuck in a loop, because I'm regurgitating some of the same opinions in two threads, but I think the same applies here.

You're assuming that having pure armor and health is equivelant to having pure evasion and health, and they aren't. While it is true that there are damage types that armor doesn't apply to, that argument is somewhat moot in the current discussion.

Yes, you are correct that some elemental damage gets bypassed entirely by evasion where it may not by armor (though I might argue this is less impactful then you are making it out to be, don't forget this doesn't apply to spells).

The problem though is that in later difficulties, armor/health is reliable whereas evasion/health is not. Furthermore, armor/health synergize with eachother where as evasion/health do not.

Since armor and health work together to build a higher effective health pool, every point you take in one is actually more powerful then the point by itself. Health makes armor more valuable, and armor makes health more valuable. The damage that you do take is steady, and for physical damage you can rely that your mitigation will take place and have time to react to it.

For evasion, your health pool is simply your health pool. Either you dodge an attack entirely and take no damage, at which point your health pool doesn't matter, or you take a hit full force to the face, at which point your evasion no longer matters.

The inclination on paper is to respond to that by saying that, well you are less likely to take the next hit (not guaranteed, however) and therefore have time for your potions to refill your health pool, but this doesn't really work in practice. You might take two consecutive hits in a row and die, and have very little if any time to actually react to this, whereas an armor character can wait for his health to get low and then react by backing off.

And then even worse, is the propensity of being one shot when the hit goes through. This goes up and up as you hit later difficulty levels, to the point of absurdity. No matter how much evasion you have, you never have 100%, and when monsters can deal so much damage as to kill you in one shot, it's going to happen eventually.

In my opinion, this is a big problem for evasion, and is something that I feel makes it non-viable for end game usage.

I never used that Keystone yet, but I read what Charan and you guys wrote and I can see where you're coming from. So, after digesting the stuff, I can say that I agree with Charan, and I offer a helper idea to his 1-hit solution to the problem:

When you take the almost-killing hit, you're reduced to 1 HP and you have a second to escape. In that second, you're invulnerable to any other hits, no matter the damage (this would fix your problem of getting killed by the next blow). There should probably also be some visual indication that you're temporarily invulnerable.

Not terribly thrilled about the Bleeding idea though.

This is all for GGG to digest of course. Hopefully they'll be watching this thread ::- ). Some really nice feedback from everybody here.

I agree with grundir. People are jumping on the keystone bandwagon when the real issue at hand is evasion itself. There is nothing wrong with iron reflexes, its a great playstyle choice. The problem is that people point to it as the solution for the ever present elephant in the room that is evasion when, as so many people have said, its simply a band-aid.

Charan is not the first to bring up this problem we have with iron reflexes being nearly the only way to make evasion viable. His solution, a step in the right direction, is not exactly a good one. Logically, if evasion characters bleed when slashed then armor characters must also bleed(internally, perhaps) from slashing and blunt force damage as well as ES characters when they lose their shield.