6000 hours of Melee Scientific Expert Tells You the Truth- Melee changes ACTUALLY 100% suck

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

Its 180% inc attack damage and 90% attack speed on zerker using rite of ruin with no investment on base tree. it takes like 16 points you will want to invest to get back to 90% attack speed. assuming you're not using bears girdle, which has the cost of a belt slot.
Then there are the movement speed losses.

The pobs i had been kicking around is just more damage to not spec into rage on the tree outside of 1 wheel. Then run clusters instead.

Crave the slaughter gives 1% attack speed for each rage, Rite of Ruin gives 50% increased rage effect, 30 base rage means 45% more attack damage and 45% inc attack speed, which is indeed a net zero. However, Battle Trance wheel alone is giving you 25,5% more attack damage and 25,5% inc attack speed for 4 points. For a Zerk, that's a no brainer. And you're casually side stepping that in getting that 90% inc attack speed, you'd also be getting more attack damage, not increased.

And not all builds are your builds. Mine's crit, impale and rage capped and that wheel is one of the best for me, right next to Disemboweling. My best 4 wheel gives me about 20mill dps, that one gives me almost double that. Even 5 useless travel nodes were converted into that wheel, which is just sweet(had to travel to Savage Skewering and Harvester of Foes, that is no longer the case). Every other node was either the same or got moved to a better spot for my build.

Further more, movement speed is nothing but fluff for a Zerk when you can leap slam 7 times a second.

As for mana, that didn't change a thing, i have enough free with banner being dropped and rearranged my auras with one more enlighten with the freed totem gem slots.

And i haven't even added war banner damage into my calcs.

So yeah, it was a buff. And i'm not even commenting how my armor stacker got a truck load of damage since it doesn't slot into totems anyway.

P.S.: I have more experience with melee than a lot of the "experts" waddling about here, and totem being gone is a monumental QoL, even for a net zero gain (which isn't the case).

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Mashgesture wrote:

Please I beg you, go look at what fuel the fight/feed the fury/martial prowess does. Since you think you are

"Losing a large cluster of passives"


And if your mana is THAT BAD of an issue, put in lifetap support. You aren't socket starved at all for melee anymore(bye bye totems). And we just got a huge bonus to all our life modifiers.

I am very much aware of what fuel the fight does, thank you. And thanks for misquoting and misrepresenting what I said, that's very helpful too. For the record, what I said was: losing an "entire" cluster of passives (to get mana leech on the tree), and losing a cluster notable (to get fuel the fight). Not "losing a large cluster"

How many melee builds have you created recently? I don't mean to pull rank here re: experience, but I've probably made more melee builds in the last four leagues than you have made total builds in your entire time in PoE. I built melee when they FIRST messed with mana back in 3.14 and it was such a disaster that GGG walked it back only a few weeks (days?) later. This is even more drastic than that action.

Again...I'm not saying you CAN'T solve the mana issue. What I'm saying is the opportunity cost is MUCH higher, for an entire archetype that is losing more than its gaining, and that already struggles in modern PoE.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Please I beg you, go look at what fuel the fight/feed the fury/martial prowess does. Since you think you are

"Losing a large cluster of passives"


And if your mana is THAT BAD of an issue, put in lifetap support. You aren't socket starved at all for melee anymore(bye bye totems). And we just got a huge bonus to all our life modifiers.

I am very much aware of what fuel the fight does, thank you. And thanks for misquoting and misrepresenting what I said, that's very helpful too. For the record, what I said was: losing an "entire" cluster of passives (to get mana leech on the tree), and losing a cluster notable (to get fuel the fight). Not "losing a large cluster"

How many melee builds have you created recently? I don't mean to pull rank here re: experience, but I've probably made more melee builds in the last four leagues than you have made total builds in your entire time in PoE. I built melee when they FIRST messed with mana back in 3.14 and it was such a disaster that GGG walked it back only a few weeks (days?) later. This is even more drastic than that action.

Again...I'm not saying you CAN'T solve the mana issue. What I'm saying is the opportunity cost is MUCH higher, for an entire archetype that is losing more than its gaining, and that already struggles in modern PoE.

Losing a cluster notable to fuel the fight ?? what?

Are we not playing an on hit build or .... ??? What is happening? You dont lose a notable to fuel the fight if you are playing on hit. Thats a gain if you needed the leech. It also gives you damage, one of the most popular on hit notables in the game. So... you arent losing unless you dont need it.

If you dont than run enduring flask = problem solved.
For bossing harvest the flask
=Mana problem solved

If you dont want to run an enduring flask than lifetap.
=Mana problem solved


Just a real quick experiment ok? Just quick with me. This is how simple this needs to be:

New groundslam ES 6L is going to cost me TWICE AS less than what SRS cost me and I have no regen on that character(34) and ONLY an enduring flask and it casts over twice(5) as fast as my slam build will attack(~2).

You. Will. Not. Have. Mana. Issues.

Thats as simple as it needs to be. Lifetap your cries if you really want to, and leech your attacks.

Or if you want to lifetap everything, including your attack, depends what you want/can do with your build, lifetap your attack.

Or run an enduring flask.

If you run into mana issues this league with melee, come in here post the build, or put it in the help section. And your problem will be solved within 30 minutes.

For charities sake, post whatever build you currently have that has mana issues. Ill pob it and fix it to not have mana issues.

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You aren't socket starved at all for melee anymore(bye bye totems). And we just got a huge bonus to all our life modifiers.

how this relevent to main skill links which are hard capped at 5 support gems?

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Bosscannon wrote:

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You aren't socket starved at all for melee anymore(bye bye totems). And we just got a huge bonus to all our life modifiers.

how this relevent to main skill links which are hard capped at 5 support gems?

Im not sure what you mean can you explain further?

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Mashgesture wrote:

Spirit of war. After you get a single cluster, fuel the fury.

Enduring mana flask as well.

Not gonna be any mana issues.

any advice that says 'use mana flask' on a melee character is 100% done in bad faith - aka this is something you would never do but are ok with others suffering through it.


leech wont help neither. i wont waste my time explaining how mana leech works but typical melee has like 700 mana. what is the mana leech cap? what is your aps? how much mana/sec are you missing to sustain your attacks AND automated stuff (autoexerted warcry is like 50 a pop)?

i can calculate that but then youll move to some other advice that will also prove not helpful


mana will be colossal problem in 3.25 - GGG did that on purpose, just to 'keep the OP melee in check'. it is quite effective way - people are oblivious to extent of this change, so they will still buy supporter packs and once the patch lands it is 'wait till 3.26, nobody told you to play melee anyway'

what is fun is that most POBs people created for 3.25 completely ignore this aspect of a build, and i mean - completely. people are so conditioned to 'just take 2*-7 rings and its fine' that they completely, entirely dont expect what will happen when their 52mana/attack 3.5aps melee character requires a mana flask baby sit besides warcry babysit.
that even applies to the solid build creators. i check and see their build requires 180mana/second and they seem to be completely blind to that

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sidtherat wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Spirit of war. After you get a single cluster, fuel the fury.

Enduring mana flask as well.

Not gonna be any mana issues.

any advice that says 'use mana flask' on a melee character is 100% done in bad faith - aka this is something you would never do but are ok with others suffering through it.


leech wont help neither. i wont waste my time explaining how mana leech works but typical melee has like 700 mana. what is the mana leech cap? what is your aps? how much mana/sec are you missing to sustain your attacks AND automated stuff (autoexerted warcry is like 50 a pop)?

i can calculate that but then youll move to some other advice that will also prove not helpful


mana will be colossal problem in 3.25 - GGG did that on purpose, just to 'keep the OP melee in check'. it is quite effective way - people are oblivious to extent of this change, so they will still buy supporter packs and once the patch lands it is 'wait till 3.26, nobody told you to play melee anyway'

what is fun is that most POBs people created for 3.25 completely ignore this aspect of a build, and i mean - completely. people are so conditioned to 'just take 2*-7 rings and its fine' that they completely, entirely dont expect what will happen when their 52mana/attack 3.5aps melee character requires a mana flask baby sit besides warcry babysit.
that even applies to the solid build creators. i check and see their build requires 180mana/second and they seem to be completely blind to that

Previous post answers and solves all your questions.

Just hoping these melee changes make it so my inevitable swap to Boneshatter is later. Slams are fun :) but unviable DPS going into red maps

Removal of totems maybe a quality-of-life improvement? I personally did not like having to cast them

I don't have Uber Pinnacle dreams, 5m PoB DPS makes me smile. Is this a realistic take on Melee? Possibly

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Mashgesture wrote:

last post

I'm not entirely sure you have any idea what you are talking about, my friend...I'd consider not digging the hole further. Every comment in this post further reiterates how little you play melee...and have no understanding of what the new changes mean for it. Playing PoB melee doesn't mean you have any understanding of melee.

Consider reading most of Sid's posts, and other threads on this issue: he is much more informed than even I am on the subject. And I consider myself rather experienced in melee and even "modern" melee (after it became mostly trash...).

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

last post

I'm not entirely sure you have any idea what you are talking about, my friend...I'd consider not digging the hole further. Every comment in this post further reiterates how little you play melee...and have no understanding of what the new changes mean for it. Playing PoB melee doesn't mean you have any understanding of melee.

Consider reading most of Sid's posts, and other threads on this issue: he is much more informed than even I am on the subject. And I consider myself rather experienced in melee and even "modern" melee (after it became mostly trash...).

So instead of answering anything, especially when given answers to your issues,

eg:
Lifetap
Enduring mana flask

Given I have no idea what "build" you are hypothetically coming up with to have all these mana issues. Still waiting on that one.


I go ahead and give you an actual example from a build I will play in 3.25 with 0 mana issues that uses warcries (on lifetap support).

eg: My groundslam es build this league versus my old SRS build with no regen. less attack speed (2 versus 5) and mana cost (88 versus ~40). And I never ran into any mana cost issues on that SRS build. It has MORE THAN DOUBLE its skill speed and cost, 0 mana issues. Only an enduring flask.


You say "you dont play melee" but I look on your character page and welp. Nothing there, so I dont know why we are doing the whole "you dont play melee" thing. Theres about as much evidence there for you as for me. Very odd.


Can you answer the points I gave at least with an actual build you have planned or is this just all... hypothetical panic about power issues that you THINK you will have?