Why are you penalized for leveling on NPCs that are higher level than you?

Here's what you do:

-If someone higher leveled with you is partied up and the monsters are a higher level than you, penalties start to occur on screens where the monsters are +2~ levels higher than yourself.

-This penalty is more harsh the higher the level of the partied member. In case of groups, the highest level is what judges your penalties.

-Penalties do not occur (for you) if the other player is within 2-3 levels of your own, or under you in level.

-If lategame it's viable to be more than 2-3 levels away from someone and both can still kill something 5 levels above them, adjust accordingly. Possibly the game difficulty at that point.

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Slicer wrote:

That's got to be one of the worst systems possible.

Player level should be a loose measure of strength, and monster level should be the same thing; an L40 monster should be a critical threat to an L30 player.

If an L30 player is killing L40 monsters, that means that the player has good gear and a wise build design. If this is happening regularly, then the L40s need to be more dangerous- not just with basic stat increases, but with different and unnerving attacks, killer AI, and swarm tactics.

But arbitrarily saying "oh you can't fight those yet, they're too strong" to force high-powered characters to grind on equal-leveled monsters is simply bad design. It means that the level system has utterly failed in its intent.

So, there should be no hidden boosts solely based on comparative level. A level 20 should be able to solo the end boss of Cruel without any differences other than the end boss's original high stats and his low ones, and if he overcomes the power mismatch to beat that thing anyway, you've either got a very good player or a very weak boss; give the player a massive exp bonus for the first case and give the boss new tricks for the second.

I retract my previous statement, and completely agree with this one after hearing it.

This in combination with someone else's previous idea about partying involving means and -% multiplier and I think you will have a great working system.

I think you all miss a point though ...
It IS faster to grind on +4 lvl monsters, and even +6 (dread thicket ...), just because the monsters give more XP at lvl 36 than at lvl 32.

Then you should see how fast you're killing them, and how it works. Actually you want to get to one of the few "best" farming area, and stay there from -5 to +2, then go ahead.
I don't really see a problem with that, if a level 30 character wins more xp by killing level 35 stuff than a level 35 character, the leveling experience will seem extremely broken (by broken I mean really broken).

I rushed a Witch recently, solo, to see what happened. I hit dread thicket at lvl 15 (it's a lvl 21 area). I can tell you the 15->16 level was way faster than level 20->21 (and like too fast, really, like 4 min).

If you give more experience than what it is now, you're further encouraging to rush through all the instances and not to kill any monsters except in few areas, and I feel like it's wrong.
It's already how things work : you rush through most of the areas and you fight on the grinding ones. No need to push it more.

"

Chris wrote:

Hi guys,

d) Other action RPGs have very similar (or exactly the same) system.

Having said that, I'm more than happy to change it. What do you suggest we do?

Other action RPGs are not POE, and I'm glad you're open for suggestions.

I'd create a system where player DOES get penalized heavily if receiving experience and someone in the party (and is in the same area) is let's say....... 5 levels below or above? If the difference is only 2-3 levels... what difference does that make? They should be rewarded for being together, because they're very close in their levels.

The reason why I hesitate to go above 2-3 levels without penalty is because early game that is a large gap. Late game I'm sure it could be expanded quite a bit.

If you are alone, and no party members in your team, you get full XP for higher level monsters, and even a bonus.
I guess there is no spell like Static Field in Diablo2, but anyway make it so you have to be alone in the area completely to receive the full XP + Bonus. If you are really strong and playing solo and getting some hard time killing monsters, I don't see why the reward shouldn't mirror that!

"

Bringer wrote:

Well whats the penalty exactly? You cant compare it like its compared in the OP.

Take a level 30 character

does a level 35 mob give more exp than a level 34 mob does?

If the 'penalty' just lowers the exp from the full value that's not really a penalty if it doesn't lower it below what killing a lower level mob gives. exps an abstract thing and this is no different than if mobs gave full exp but the requirement to level each level was modified.

You should look at exp as in percent of your current level, not as a fixed number.

Ive always felt like i leveled faster playing in areas that were a few levels above my current character level. Some good ones i rush to on a difficulty then farm until im 2 levels above them, which is where the exp really starts to dry up.

At level 31 you will get more XP (absolute, post-penalty numbers) from killing mobs in Pools and Streams in Cruel than you do killing level 36 mobs in The Ledge on Ruthless. And they will be easier to kill to boot.

EDIT: In fact, here are some numbers I regathered just for you with my level 31 Witch in the default league:

Level 32 Human Archer in Pools and Streams:
1479

Level 32 Skelly Archer in Cathedral of Bones 2:
1512

Level 36 Skelly Archer in The Ledge (from the first post):
1339

I naturally checked this when I collected the numbers in the first post as well, I just didn't bother to write them down.

"

Utukku wrote:

I think you all miss a point though ...
It IS faster to grind on +4 lvl monsters, and even +6 (dread thicket ...), just because the monsters give more XP at lvl 36 than at lvl 32.

See above. This isn't universally true, if it is true at all (I'm leaning towards it being plain false until someone supplies numbers showing otherwise). But you're obviously right that the actual speed at which you will gain XP depends on more than just flat XP numbers. For example, what makes The Ledge such a good grinding map is the mob density which makes it faster to go there even if you're ~3 levels lower.

"

Slicer wrote:

Okay, I think we kind of talked around each other there. We both agree that decreasing exp with higher-level monsters is a bad idea.

But having a system that says "Well, you COULD kill these things, but the system won't allow it" means that the game is far too easy. If someone can kill the last boss on the first day, he probably deserves it. Why would the devs want "control of player advancement"? Is this a game or some kind of torture? Leave player advancement totally uncontrolled, and if people can manage to kill things that they probably shouldn't be able to kill, that's their right.

As I already wrote I don't think rushing through areas is a problem that needs to be solved. But the GGG people obviously do think it's a problem or the current curve wouldn't be in place.

Adding a hard power cap allows them to still control the rate of advancement but makes it impossible for someone to kill something and not be rewarded for it, and therefore they won't feel cheated.

(edit: Though I'm sure you'd find this just as repulsive, they could also simply add "level check" bosses at certain points in the game instead of having a universal level check at +10 levels or whatever.)

But will they instead feel cheated when they realize that their pro-gaming skills won't allow them to kill the last boss at level 1? The popularity of MMOs suggests that the answer is "no", and I would say that this is because arbitrary limits to power is an expected feature of level based games. It is not a bug that needs fixing (and if GGG had wanted it to be otherwise, they would've made a skill-based game from the start rather than a level based one).

"

Gea wrote:

Here's what you do:

-If someone higher leveled with you is partied up and the monsters are a higher level than you, penalties start to occur on screens where the monsters are +2~ levels higher than yourself.

-This penalty is more harsh the higher the level of the partied member. In case of groups, the highest level is what judges your penalties.

-Penalties do not occur (for you) if the other player is within 2-3 levels of your own, or under you in level.

-If lategame it's viable to be more than 2-3 levels away from someone and both can still kill something 5 levels above them, adjust accordingly. Possibly the game difficulty at that point.

What do you do when people are in the same instance but not grouped? E.g., as in the example Slicer provided where a tank will taunt a horde of mobs that a low level mage can whittle away at. The party mechanism is the most elegant base solution, I think, but there are some issues which it doesn't catch.

I suppose you could simply make it impossible to be in the same instance but not in the same group (as I wrote earlier that would make the party mechanism a sufficient solution to the leeching problem), but we already know that they want this to be possible from the talk of being able to invade other people's zones in certain PvP leagues etc.

Lets think this through. (Wall of text!!!)

Example 1. Someone just starting the game, with no twinking.

They can probably kill most monsters maybe 1-2 levels above them, but if you go any higher it just won't be worth the hassle. They will progress through the game at a good pace, like the Developers meant for it to be.

This person gets good stuff, and decided he wants to twink a new character.

Example 2. Decently twinked out guy.

This person has some experience with the game, and just wanted to try out some new characters. He can kill stuff 5-6 levels higher than him at a decent pace, so he runs through some of areas to get to them. He too gets strong and gets some of the best twinking gear you could find.

Example 3. Fully decked out super-noob!

This guy knows his shit, and wants to get to end game fast. He plows through things 7-8 levels higher than him because his gear is bad ass. His sole goal is to get to the end game and rape stuff.



So lets think about every game ever made with co-op. This is the basic system. What is so wrong with this? lets be honest, we all played Diablo 2, and if you played online you inevitably had a character twinked/rushed/power leveled. After you play through the entire game a few times, you know which parts of the game you like and which parts you don't. What is so wrong with being able to power level through some of the lower stuff so you can get to the end game quicker?

There are some places where games should focus on being unique, and some where they should just conform... I believe this is one of those where you should follow D2's footsteps. Without rushing, I would be willing to bet the game would have died by now. People do not like playing through act 3 anymore, people don't like grinding through the levels anymore. When the game came out, it was awesome. I would crawl through the entire game multiple times. Now when I play, it's all about getting strong to find that next best item so I can either PvP or get rich... that's just how the system is and should be.

Your first few characters most people like to play though and experience everything, they aren't going to be fighting things 10 levels above them. Once they get to the point they want to power level a few characters, and they have the ability to do it, then why penalize them? I am all for stopping the lvl 60s killing stuff for lvl 1s and they still get experience, but if a lvl 1 person can kill a lvl 10 monster, they should get the same amount of exp as if a lvl 10 person killed it.

I've never been a fan of games where they give exp based on your level compared to the monster's level. It should be based off the monster's level 100% If I want to spend all summer living in my friend's mom's basement eating hot pockets and killing lvl 1 monsters in the safe zone just because I want to level up without being killed, that should be my choice! The game should scale exp needed to level up instead of exp received down.

TL;DR

1. Monsters should give the same exp to a lvl 1 as a lvl 60.

2. Characters in a party should not get exp with someone 10 levels higher.

3. If someone is in your instance, the level restrictions should still apply like they were partied if they both aggro the same monster. (To prevent first/last hit tactics and a high lvl tanking for a low level.)