Why are you penalized for leveling on NPCs that are higher level than you?

So can you give an example of an actual game that functions like you're describing? Because I don't think I've ever played any game with levels where they don't function like more or less arbitrary power limits (i.e. "you can't beat this because your level is too low").

Dungeons and Dragons, maybe? Granted, that's tabletop, so you have a person sitting there handing out exp bonuses for overcoming tough challenges, but if he gave out exp based on the way the calculations are currently being done in PoE, the other players would probably sodomize him to death with a pitchfork.

"So you're saying that since we were too low level, we're getting less experience from killing that lich?!"

"Well, yeah, what other games have it any other way?"

"Hold on. Let me get something from the shed."

Final Fantasies new and old don't have this kind of thing either. Nor did MMOs like UO. Nor do many other MMOs like Ragnarok Online. Granted, most of those games don't have "monster level" as a concept, but maybe that's something that should be done away with. Give monsters a set amount of exp that they give, no matter what, and scale the exp curve so that relatively powerful monsters give relatively good exp. So there are no "L30 skeletons" to kill instead of "L20 skeletons", which is lazy anyway. Put different models and different palette swaps in different areas.

Determining exp based on party members' comparative levels should probably still be a real thing if we want to stop boosting, but that becomes much more straightforward.

Killing tough monsters compared to your stats and abilities should be simply inherently difficult, which can be overcome with this little thing called player skill.

Could you have a separate scale for in and out of party?

I'm a huge solo player and I think this would solve most power-leveling issues as well as let us soloers beat higher lvl mobs for better rewards.

That's also bad, because what if the whole party is underleveled? Killing tough monsters should be rewarded whether the killers are a party or not.

Right. I don't really disagree with you that in the best of worlds your skill as a player should always matter more than arbitrary numbers. But you're basically asking for a fundamental redesign of the entire game system, which I suspect isn't on the table at this point in development (but perhaps I'm wrong). The base game isn't exactly Street Fighter.

As I pointed out in the first post, the risk/reward ratio is out of whack in the current implementation. People are going to think that the system is unfair when they realize that they aren't properly rewarded for their efforts. That is what I see as the fundamental problem here.

Removing the adjusted experience curve and adding a hard and arbitrary limit on your power (i.e., that you can't kill something e.g. 10 levels higher than you no matter how hard you try) extends the current amount of risk that you're rewarded for. Instead of just rewarding you for killing stuff that is around your own power level, you are rewarded for trying to take on stuff that is against the odds.

Additionally, it also still leaves a lot of control over player advancement in the hands of the developers so they don't have to fear that someone beats the last boss on the first day.

This may be terrible game design according to your standards, but it's tried and true and doesn't require them to rebuild the game from the ground up.

If, on the other hand, they just extend the range of the current curve (say by 10 levels before the penalty kicks in), then the fundamental problem is going to remain: people are probably going to be able to kill harder stuff than they are rewarded for.

Okay, I think we kind of talked around each other there. We both agree that decreasing exp with higher-level monsters is a bad idea.

But having a system that says "Well, you COULD kill these things, but the system won't allow it" means that the game is far too easy. If someone can kill the last boss on the first day, he probably deserves it. Why would the devs want "control of player advancement"? Is this a game or some kind of torture? Leave player advancement totally uncontrolled, and if people can manage to kill things that they probably shouldn't be able to kill, that's their right.

I like the idea of two monster levels working simultaneously for every instance - one being the difficulty (DIF) level and one being the experience (EXP) level. Furthermore, the player level should be modified upward or downward based upon the base level of the particular instance area they are in. (I think that last part might already be the case.) This modification would only be used for calculations, of course. I'm not suggesting that players levels actually go up or down ;)

In solo play, DIF and EXP levels would always be equal and based on the level of the solo player (when taking the base level of the instance in to account).

In party play, DIF would be based on the highest level player in a party plus a modifier based on the number of players in the party and what their levels (when taking the base level of the instance in to account). What this formula should be, I don't exactly know, unfortunately. But basically, the difficulty of mobs should scale upward with more players, but not drastically if most of the other players are significantly lower level than the highest in the party. Of course, if everyone in the party is the same level, it should, indeed, scale up drastically.

The EXP level for party play should be statically based on the highest level player in the party (when taking the base level of the instance in to account) and scale downward for all players below that in the party. Something like 3 levels below should equal roughly the same as if that player were playing solo. Anything below 3 should exponentially decrease until bottoming out at 0 exp if you are 10 or more levels below the highest in the group.

While power-leveling can be a problem, it's also kind of the nature of the beast with party-based RPGs. There's almost always a tank class, with PoE being no exception, and tanks, by nature, take the punishment while the other classes dish it. You have to be careful not to get overzealous in your efforts to quell power-leveling so much that you end up breaking that core mechanic and ruining the teamwork aspect of it.

The one thing I think we can all agree upon, though, is that there should be no penalty for solo players taking on higher level mobs - ever.

Well whats the penalty exactly? You cant compare it like its compared in the OP.

Take a level 30 character

does a level 35 mob give more exp than a level 34 mob does?

If the 'penalty' just lowers the exp from the full value that's not really a penalty if it doesn't lower it below what killing a lower level mob gives. exps an abstract thing and this is no different than if mobs gave full exp but the requirement to level each level was modified.

You should look at exp as in percent of your current level, not as a fixed number.

Ive always felt like i leveled faster playing in areas that were a few levels above my current character level. Some good ones i rush to on a difficulty then farm until im 2 levels above them, which is where the exp really starts to dry up.

"

Chris wrote:

Hi guys,

This is currently intentional and the reasoning is as follows:

a) The higher monsters are worth more experience (pre-penalty) anyway.
b) To discourage rushing characters to areas beyond their abilities (I understand this doesn't feel good, and that may be a good reason to change it).
c) To fix the abuse of a low level character leeching experience from higher level ones (which can be extreme).
d) Other action RPGs have very similar (or exactly the same) system.

Having said that, I'm more than happy to change it. What do you suggest we do?

Well i would like to request if possible if you could let us in on the current formula you use to decide the distribution of experience in all aspects so this way we can all help give more productive input on how we could possibly better it?

Goes without say i mean... if you feel uncomfortable about that then it is fine, but as always and proven with most games out there for example D2... eventually all formulas are figured out by the community playing the game and then turned into leveling guides in the long run.

Again the choice is yours... hopefully most will understand that i am trying to make a valid point even if i fail miserably at it.

I'm going to agree on keeping the system in place (or modifying it) for party play, but removing it for solo play.

I'm seeing talk about high-level players twinking their new characters and powering through for extra XP. I don't see a problem with this, myself, as you earned whatever gear you gave to that low-level character.
It feels a lot more rewarding that way as well, knowing that you're getting tangible benefit (outside of doing more dmg) in the form of more experience.