Skill Gem Feedback - Ethereal Knives - Forum

" pneuma wrote: No, Hatred works because it gives you a phys->cold conversion and EK does physical damage. Anger and Wrath add flat damage to Attaks (and EK is a spell). I've had moderate success with a Ranger using EK, focusing on crit and projectile damage for my damage boosts, with Hatred, Added Fire, and Faster Proj to increase the damage via non-passives. EK would feel much more fluid if the cast time went down a bit (going from 1s to 0.84s with frenzy charges is a huge relief) and the damage went down to keep the same relative strength. Right now it feels far to slow compared to normal weapon swinging animations and movement speed. That's odd, the site description of Hatred is 'Casts an aura that increases the cold damage of you and your allies.' Which seems to correspond to the other two, Anger and Wrath. As a side-note, I've decided the skill should be renamed and NOT made into Chaos damage. There are chaos immune mobs out there. Just ran into one. Was very glad for physical damage. Ethereal is almost the opposite of physical, GGG. https://linktr.ee/wjameschan -- everything I've ever done worth talking about, and even that is debatable.	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on May 26, 2012, 10:27:45 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" pneuma wrote: ... Added Fire, ... Great idea. I'm glad I thought of it. Seriously though, not sure why I didn't, thanks. Urist McDwarfy has been happy lately. He admired an exceptional ARPG recently. He took joy in slaughter lately. He has been attacked by the dead recently. Check out the Path of Exile wiki: http://en.pathofexilewiki.com	Posted by UristMcDwarfy#1339 on May 27, 2012, 2:28:29 AM Quote this Post
" CharanJaydemyr wrote: I realise my longer posts don't always encourage a direct answer from GGG, so I'm going to keep this much shorter than usual, and more blunt. What exactly is this skill supposed to be? When it was conceived, how was it meant to be used? Implicitly, am I being stupid in trying to find a way to make it my main damage source from level 4 onwards? Cheers. Not a clue, sorry. I wasn't involved in the design of this one, and I made it based on what I'm told. The skill has been through a LOT of iterations where previous behaviours weren't balanced or didn't work right. I don't think people here are massively happy with the current stat of the skill either, but it works and isn't completely broken, so it's at least a start.	Posted by Mark_GGG on May 27, 2012, 8:05:59 PM Grinding Gear Games Quote this Post
Thanks for the reply, Mark. As I drag my Knives-witch through Act 2 and into the realm of support gems, she's definitely looking more viable...but probably not a good 'alternative' to existing spell choices, given the lack of 'spell damage' passive buffs compared to elemental ones on the skilldrasil. Oh well, I enjoy her at any rate. :) https://linktr.ee/wjameschan -- everything I've ever done worth talking about, and even that is debatable.	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on May 27, 2012, 9:05:23 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
Same here, CharanJaydemyr. I'm starting to get fairly comfortable in chaos @ level 59 using mainly this skill and Ice Spear for single target and long range applications. I use CI with blood rage for free Frenzy Charges to make the cast time a little less of an issue. If you'd like to see it in action, I've got a new video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7zuqEXIwec Here's a short list of things I dislike about the skill: When you try to use the skill and click a point beyond its range, it will move closer until that point is in range and then use the skill. Thankfully, it seems to take the improved range that faster projectiles provides into account in this range finding. However, someone who is more accustomed to other projectile spells (especially ones with multiple projectile supports added) will find this very unusual. I know that there are other skills that use this range finding technique, but I've never particularly liked it, and I don't find it to be a good fit for this spell. I find myself using shift at long range more often than not to try to fine-tune the direction of flight. The range often seems to be a little longer than the range finder would suggest, but that may be a product of latency. The base range is almost pitifully small. I like the fact that faster projectiles will increase the range (it is a chronically underutilized stat), but it takes quite a lot of it to make EK feel suitably powerful. It's no wonder to me that most people never give it a chance. I'm not a fan of the look of the spell. If it weren't for the arm movement, it might make me think my character was sneezing on things. Maybe some sort of sonic boom type of effect on each individual projectile would help? And some things I like: There's now a spell that does physical damage, which creates a use for all sorts of physical-damage-only supports etc that were previously not useful on any spell. Who doesn't love that? I think the base damage is near perfect but just a little on the high side (wut? he said it was too high?) considering all the options for improving it. It's got a nice tight arc that makes you feel like a boss when you aim it just right. EK fills a much needed niche for projectile spells that will hit multiple unbunched targets without having to throw on Multi Projectile supports. My overall review of the spell is positive. It is different enough from other skills to give it a useful place while still allowing for supporting combos with other projectile spells and some attacks to make up for the areas where it lacks. Urist McDwarfy has been happy lately. He admired an exceptional ARPG recently. He took joy in slaughter lately. He has been attacked by the dead recently. Check out the Path of Exile wiki: http://en.pathofexilewiki.com	Posted by UristMcDwarfy#1339 on May 28, 2012, 1:05:57 PM Quote this Post
Thanks for the in-depth feedback! " UristMcDwarfy wrote: When you try to use the skill and click a point beyond its range, it will move closer until that point is in range and then use the skill. Thankfully, it seems to take the improved range that faster projectiles provides into account in this range finding. However, someone who is more accustomed to other projectile spells (especially ones with multiple projectile supports added) will find this very unusual. I know that there are other skills that use this range finding technique, but I've never particularly liked it, and I don't find it to be a good fit for this spell. I find myself using shift at long range more often than not to try to fine-tune the direction of flight. The range often seems to be a little longer than the range finder would suggest, but that may be a product of latency. Initial testing suggested it was really frustrating being able to click on a monster and not hit them because they weren't quite in range. We found this skill felt better to use when treated more like ground slam than a projectile like ice spear in terms of targeting. It seems you disagree - I'm interested if anyone else wants to chime in on this one. Actually, currently the range of the skill isn't taking increased projectile speed into account - that's something I should make a note to do. The reason the range you'll walk to when using the skill is less than where you hit is because each projectile has some random variation in it's movement, including speed, so sometimes they go a bit further than others. The minimum targeting range set for the skill is at point where you'll (almost) always hit something at that range, rather than a bit further where you might or might not depending how the random variation affects you. " UristMcDwarfy wrote: The base range is almost pitifully small. I like the fact that faster projectiles will increase the range (it is a chronically underutilized stat), but it takes quite a lot of it to make EK feel suitably powerful. It's no wonder to me that most people never give it a chance. My understanding is it's not intended to be a really long-range skill, but there's an open issue for increasing it's base range which I need to talk to people about, so that might be getting bumped up. " UristMcDwarfy wrote: I'm not a fan of the look of the spell. If it weren't for the arm movement, it might make me think my character was sneezing on things. Maybe some sort of sonic boom type of effect on each individual projectile would help? I like the look of the knives themselves, personally, but the green effect which plays on them a bit less so. I'm hoping we're able to continue to improve it. " UristMcDwarfy wrote: There's now a spell that does physical damage, which creates a use for all sorts of physical-damage-only supports etc that were previously not useful on any spell. Who doesn't love that? Agreed. I've been waiting for physical damage spells for a while. " UristMcDwarfy wrote: I think the base damage is near perfect but just a little on the high side (wut? he said it was too high?) considering all the options for improving it. It's got a nice tight arc that makes you feel like a boss when you aim it just right. Interesting. " UristMcDwarfy wrote: EK fills a much needed niche for projectile spells that will hit multiple unbunched targets without having to throw on Multi Projectile supports. I'm glad it's found a place.	Posted by Mark_GGG on May 28, 2012, 8:16:28 PM Grinding Gear Games Quote this Post
So (and I'm trying to remain concise here), EK needs what I call low-level love. That or just make it a higher level skill (not a good solution imho). Your testing at high level is extremely impressive, Urist, but my concern is the often overlooked but crucial first 20 or so levels. If you're going to make a skill available at level 4, it has to be competitive and viable, even attractive, at level 4 and onwards. This is something GGG has managed to do with excellent results so far. Very few skills you can use at level 4 strike me as utterly secondary to others. Right now, EK is. And it remains that way until at least level 15 or so. I love it as a low level skill and hope a balance can be found. Also, I agree with you regarding the damage. It's hitting real hard now. I'd lower it and add bleeding. https://linktr.ee/wjameschan -- everything I've ever done worth talking about, and even that is debatable. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on May 28, 2012, 8:44:52 PM	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on May 28, 2012, 8:44:06 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" Mark_GGG wrote: Initial testing suggested it was really frustrating being able to click on a monster and not hit them because they weren't quite in range. We found this skill felt better to use when treated more like ground slam than a projectile like ice spear in terms of targeting. It seems you disagree - I'm interested if anyone else wants to chime in on this one. Actually, currently the range of the skill isn't taking increased projectile speed into account - that's something I should make a note to do. The reason the range you'll walk to when using the skill is less than where you hit is because each projectile has some random variation in it's movement, including speed, so sometimes they go a bit further than others. The minimum targeting range set for the skill is at point where you'll (almost) always hit something at that range, rather than a bit further where you might or might not depending how the random variation affects you. The random projectile distance explains a few previously confusing things I was seeing. I also see that you're right about it not changing the "move to skill range" distance with increased projectile speed, though it definitely seems to increase the average range before the projectiles dissipate (I think you were talking about what I call the range finding when you said it wasn't taking increased projectile speed into account, but it seemed slightly ambiguous to me). Whatever you call it, with the "move to skill range" fixed for increased projectile speed, it might make more sense to keep this feature. In the end, I guess it really depends on how much you want to commit with your character. If you're very squishy (like my CI character), you probably don't appreciate the interface moving you into melee range just because you clicked slightly too far or missed the ground you were aiming at and clicked a monster instead. A more defense-oriented character would probably prefer the "move to skill range" feature, though. Urist McDwarfy has been happy lately. He admired an exceptional ARPG recently. He took joy in slaughter lately. He has been attacked by the dead recently. Check out the Path of Exile wiki: http://en.pathofexilewiki.com	Posted by UristMcDwarfy#1339 on May 28, 2012, 11:46:07 PM Quote this Post
" UristMcDwarfy wrote: And some things I like: There's now a spell that does physical damage, which creates a use for all sorts of physical-damage-only supports etc that were previously not useful on any spell. Who doesn't love that? I think the base damage is near perfect but just a little on the high side (wut? he said it was too high?) considering all the options for improving it. It's got a nice tight arc that makes you feel like a boss when you aim it just right. EK fills a much needed niche for projectile spells that will hit multiple unbunched targets without having to throw on Multi Projectile supports. My overall review of the spell is positive. It is different enough from other skills to give it a useful place while still allowing for supporting combos with other projectile spells and some attacks to make up for the areas where it lacks. Agree on all these points. There are alot of ways to modify the damage on the spell. The damage was never the issue while I was using it. The mana cost/cast speed/overall sluggish mechanics of the spell were. I like having a spell that takes advantage of other game mechanics and utilizes non-standard support gems. Also agree with the low level points. There are fewer ways to make it immediately stronger, most notably lacking the +1 level X gem as a physical skill. However, hatred and Added fire and faster projectiles are early support gems/skills that make it tolerable at low levels.	Posted by indczn#2602 on May 29, 2012, 2:24:35 PM Quote this Post
I feel that the targeting should be adjusted so that the character does not move, this often results in me walking too close to enemies that I truly do not want to be near. I understand that there is a key for forcing stand-still, but as far as I know it is not key-bindable. If either it was adjusted so the character does not move forward when you click past the skill's range, or the key to force stand becomes bindable then this skill will be much more attractive (to those so inclined as I).	Posted by blinddagger95#5903 on May 29, 2012, 3:02:47 PM Quote this Post