Cyclone

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Vipermagi wrote:

It's really easy to see with Cleave, Leap Slam or Sweep. They have fairly large AoEs, and Leap Slam and Sweep are a 360-degree circle. Start wailing away at a pack and you'll see some monsters taking damage, others don't -- until you grab RT.

Deal enough damage to one-shot everything, and don't boost your Accuracy. Aggro some five to eight monkeys, and make sure they're all punching you in the shins. Sweep them. Some will die, some won't.

That is a cool story, but we are talking about Cyclone here...

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kodr wrote:

@Valmar: when you travel slower, you will hit more times enemies during the same cyclone.
having movement speed is more a balance between damage, sustain and control.

With Blood Magic, you don't have a problem with sustain, but it can be a problem with mana. Without movement speed, you will hit more times without having to cast again cyclone, which will cost less mana in the end.

Damage wise, it's about the same if you don't mind using Cyclone back and forth. You may need one cyclone without movement speed, but 2 cyclones with MS.

And control... you may want to finish your cyclone sooner than later. It's also a bit easier to cast your next trajectory with a bit less MS.


I don't use movement speed boots but I have Leather and Steel, I don't have the -14% malus if I use an armor and shield.

Thanks for answer.


Yeah I know if you move slowly, you hit more in the same zone I agree. But IMHO (not tested a lot, just asking feedback here) there are 2 cases:

1) If you find a big mob of monsters and you click FAR from them, your character will break through them and ended up far. If you play this way (something like the "old cyclone"), I agree that slow movement is better, because you remain more time over the monsters and thus provide more hits, before past them. With fast movement you just pretty barely hit them. So I agree.

2) If you find one alone monster, try to do what I said. I click on them and I find using quicksilver kill him in, lets say 20% less time aprox than not using it.


A sideback case:

3) If I find a mob of monster and use short spins around them (ala whirlwind in d2), I start to think you also kill them faster with quicksilver. At least this is the impression I am getting now.


SO I think if you got the mana (life) to sustain it, I find +movement superior than not having it, because you got maneuver, survival, but also more damage (I repeat: from my observation, could be wrong here) if you do very very short spins. With long spins I agree its better dont have +movement at all.


Maybe its just my impression kodr.


So, because fo that, I'm answering you people for both three cases and what you think about them, if possible after trying. Thanks for help and I hope I explained correctly with the right words. Hard to do it in English.

with the old Cyclone, I prefered movement speed, because the distance was too long, it was just better to start a new Cyclone sooner.
But after the update, I had a hard time to control the cyclone because the distance was too short and I usually ended up not spinning in the middle of a pack, it was just easier without MS (mostly because when you click on a mob, you will spin and stop at his position, not behind him where you clicked, mostly due to the hit box).

I don't really think you kill faster with MS, but if you prefer the gameplay with MS, good for you :)
With big boss, I usually old down the mouse button to spin on top of it to kill it.

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kodr wrote:

With big boss, I usually old down the mouse button to spin on top of it to kill it.

Yeah this is a good tactic. But when moster don't move, it fails sometimes. I tried that tactic yesterday at Gneis (old fields) and I stopped cycloning sometimes because he stopped first.


But in a random boss, or in a movement boss, its very fun doing this holding button and very productive. Even then, it's what I named "case 2)".

I will try to find a boss with enough life and count the seconds I need to kill him with quicksilver, and then without it, and then I will post the results here.

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Torin wrote:

Well I was wrong, I don't one-cyclone single mobs in fellshrine afterall :D
I guess not enough DPS. I hope my dps will skyrocket once I get the weapon elemental damage cluster at templar start


EDIT:

IMPORTANT!!!

Can anyone that is using RT do a little test.
I would ask someone with this to remove Resolute and with the fairly low hit chance see if they miss whole groups of enemies with one cyclone or hit whole groups of enemies with one cyclone.

This test would provide us with knowledge if there is only one accuracy roll per skill use. If there is only one, that makes this skill terrible as if you use this skill without RT you will get situations when you roll through groups, and leech noting and die as result.

Why I cannot test it? Well I got a high hit chance, so when I do miss (rarely) I cannot be sure it is not desync. Someone that removes RT will miss more consistently and can be sure when it is miss and when it is desync.

Also it would be good to test it against groups of identical enemies and mixed groups.
If my theory is correct when you start Cyclone game rolls one accuracy roll and checks that against evasion of all targets in your path. If targets have different evasion scores some will get hit and some will not and I am sure identical enemies all have same evasion scores.

There is no Accuracy roll, there is no to hit roll. An attack makes a crit roll, and it may make an effect roll (like shock if you have it given in addition to from crit); an attack does not make any to hit roll.

The roll that is made is an Evasion roll, and that roll is made by everyone who can evade and is "hit" by an attack that can be evaded.

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Fillmore wrote:

There is no Accuracy roll, there is no to hit roll. An attack makes a crit roll, and it may make an effect roll (like shock if you have it given in addition to from crit); an attack does not make any to hit roll.

The roll that is made is an Evasion roll, and that roll is made by everyone who can evade and is "hit" by an attack that can be evaded.

well if you want to nitpick, the attack doesn't do a crit roll, the skill does when you use it, once :)
Then there's an crit evasion roll made by the enemy after the accuracy roll, to see if the crit is downgraded.

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Torin wrote:

That is a cool story, but we are talking about Cyclone here...

An Attack is an Attack is an Attack. Accuracy vs. Evasion is rolled and it's not per-activation.
(it would be impossible to roll per-activation anyways, as Fillmore also points out)

Ok, then I hitting nobody with Cyclone was desynce afterall.

Well this still leaves the problem of you crit all or nobody :(

Does the fact that I can't be stunned react in any way with block?

The problem with desync makes a lot of potential skills in this game irrelevant. Cyclone, along with poor ol' whirling blade, tops this category. Hell, even monkey mobs with whirling blade lags like crap.