Hatred

I'm enjoying Hatred a lot so far on my archer duelist. It goes really well with Ice Bite. The only thing I don't like about it is that the reserve is too high and the radius is really, really small. I have to pretty much be dry humping someone for them to be in range. My Hatred is lv4. I'll try getting some aura range passives and let you know how the range is then.

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Pixelmancer wrote:

The only thing I don't like about it is that the reserve is too high and the radius is really, really small.

It seems to me the skill is like this because of how powerful cold damage is. Hatred provides a huge cold damage boost and easily makes a good cold build op. For this reason, it needs a hefty drawback. However, it's in my opinion that the drawback isn't large enough. Take Determination, the Armor aura, for instance. The skill has a HUGE mana reservation of 40%. Granted there's little benefit to be gained from Determination and so it's not a great example but the point I'm trying to make is that it's certainly possible to make the skill cost more but still useable.

I'd really in all honesty ,though, like to see Hatred turned into a flat mana reservation but see it's damage nerfed to compensate. This skill is so much more powerful than Anger and, in my opinion, more powerful than Wrath as well simply because of the nature of Cold Damage. I think Anger's damage should be pumped a bit and Hatred's damage nerfed with a corresponding cost reduction.

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FaceLicker wrote:

Hatred provides a huge cold damage boost and easily makes a good cold build op.

Please tell me what a "good cold build" is?

2 posts up I laid out exactly what my build was, including having the large Ice Bite passive and how underwhelming the damage on Hatred was compared to Anger or Wrath.

I've found that in order to get a significant damage boost from Hatred, you need to be using a weapon that has an enormous Physical damage bonus.

This is totally counter-intuitive to a skill that adds elemental damage.

People that are going for elemental damage builds get elemental damage weapons.

People that are going for physical damage don't use Hatred.

For example, here's a good elemental damage weapon, one that someone who specializes into elemental damage would use:



Passives = 125% weapon elemental damage, 25% physical from strength

Weapon Damage:
34-55 Physical.
20-32 Fire.
38-88 Cold.
11-155 Lightning.
104-330 Total. Average 216.5.

Anger:
70-115 Fire Damage. Average 93.

Wrath:
14-216 Lightning Damage. Average 115.

Hatred:
24-39 Cold Damage. Average 31.5

As you can see, the Hatred aura by itself would increase weapon damage by 14.5%. Anger increases damage by 43%, and Wrath by 53.1%.

As I said above. The only way to get significant damage from Hatred is by using a weapon that has a huge Physical damage increase. It is totally counter-intuitive.

Here's a good physical damage weapon:


Passives = 150% increased physical damage

Weapon Damage:
205-648 Physical Damage. 426 Average.

Anger:
31-51 Fire damage. 41 Average.

Wrath:
6-96 Lightning damage. 51 Average.

Hatred:
71-227 Cold damage. 149 Average.

Here Hatred increases weapon damage by 35%. Anger by 10%, and Wrath by 12%.

Hatred works best for people that use very strong physical weapons, and have a large amount of damage boosts for physical damage passives.

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TheRabbit303 wrote:

Please tell me what a "good cold build" is?

People that are going for elemental damage builds get elemental damage weapons.

People that are going for physical damage don't use Hatred.

And if this is your mentality, then you are going about it the wrong way. I think you're ignoring just how potent even the slightest bit of cold damage is. You're worried about just the total dps numbers and leaving out the reason why Cold damage has lower values than the other elements in the first place. Cold Damage slows, freezes and shatters an enemy. Lightning Damage will ALWAYS do more damage because of the nature of shocking. The difference being that your enemies have little to no chance of attacking you if they're slowed or frozen where as enemies that are shocked or on fire still have the same chance to hit you, they just may die sooner. Same results just different methods.

A good cold damage build, utilizing hatred, would consist of high physical damage in addition to high cold damage and a good amount of crit. It's not about 'I'm doing cold damage so let me only invest in Elemental passives' or 'I'm only investing in Physical Damage so Hatred is useless to me since there's no synergy'. If you properly plan around maximizing Cold Damage then it doesn't matter how much more damage the other elements give you. It's not about total DPS it's about max Cold Damage.

As for your weapons, you're giving piss poor examples of a good weapon for a cold damage build. A proper cold damage build would not be using that sword, nor would he use that dagger unless it just happened to boost cold damage more than any alternatives that may be available.

"

As I said above. The only way to get significant damage from Hatred is by using a weapon that has a huge Physical damage increase. It is totally counter-intuitive.

It's only counter intuitive because you're not thinking properly. Hatred, what does it do? It provides an amount of cold damage relevant to your physical damage. So how do we get the most benefit out of Cold damage using Hatred? We get high physical damage and we get high cold damage. It makes perfect sense.

Edit: I forgot to mention this too. You are NOT specialized in Cold Damage. You are specialized in ELEMENTAL damage with a leaning towards LIGHTNING and somewhat cold. Look at your own figures again and tell me I'm wrong. You said so yourself that an elemental build doesnt benefit as much from Hatred as the other auras, yet that's exactly what your build is - an Elemental Build. If you really want to evaluate Hatred based on it's own merit, then make a build soley focused on maximizing cold damage.

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TheRabbit303 wrote:

Summary (from equipment):

• Physical Damage: 24-70
• Cold Damage: 33-64
• Fire Damage: 13-31
• Lightning Damage: 20-313
• Elemental Damage Increase: 23%

From Passive Skills I have:
60% Increased Elemental Damage
45% Increased Cold Damage
45% Increased Lightning Damage
21% Increased Physical Damage
51% Increased Projectile Damage
Iron Grip with 100 strength: 20% Increased Physical Damage

I use all 3 elemental damage auras:
Anger: 30-49 additional fire damage
Wrath: 5-82 additional lightning damage
Hatred: 34% of physical damage as additional cold damage

With me being "specialized" into cold damage, Hatred is quite a let down.

Good work writing 5 paragraphs without answering any questions or providing any examples. Also:

"

TheRabbit303 wrote:

Summary (from equipment):

Physical Damage: 24-70
Cold Damage: 33-64
Fire Damage: 13-31
Lightning Damage: 20-313
Elemental Damage Increase: 23%


From Passive Skills I have:
60% Increased Elemental Damage
45% Increased Cold Damage
45% Increased Lightning Damage
21% Increased Physical Damage
51% Increased Projectile Damage
Iron Grip with 100 strength: 20% Increased Physical Damage

I use all 3 elemental damage auras:
Anger: 30-49 additional fire damage
Wrath: 5-82 additional lightning damage
Hatred: 34% of physical damage as additional cold damage

With me being "specialized" into cold damage, Hatred is quite a let down

Since you somehow managed to miss that even though you quoted and bolded the two things surrounding it.

"

Good work writing 5 paragraphs without answering any questions or providing any examples

First of all, you asked 1 Question and I answered it quite plainly. If it's unsatisfactory, that's not my problem but I'll try address it better anyway. This will all be in a spoiler tag because it's lengthy and I'm not trying to derail the thread with this crap.


The whole point I'm getting at is that with a proper Hatred build the skill is incredibly powerful. Powerful to the point where just about every enemy shatters without having the slightest chance of attacking you(unless you're melee, then there's always a chance of getting whacked). People can't judge Hatred on it's effectiveness compared to the other 2 auras because it doesn't operate the same way. Anger and Wrath both add integer based amounts of damage which is not contingent upon any other damage source. This means that they are best suited for straight up elemental builds with elemental damage increases. Hatred on the other hand, just like the Added Fire Damage support gem, is based upon the player's Physical Damage first and foremost. I understand that this is the counter-intuitive aspect because after all it is elemental damage. However, once one reads how the skill works, it makes perfect sense on how to effectively utilize it.

Comparing Hatred to Anger and Wrath using the same build is like comparing Raspberries to Blueberries and Cranberries. Sure, a raspberry is a fruit just like the others and it is called a berry. Technically though, raspberries are aggregate fruits and not berries at all. What I'm getting at is that the skill is different and has to be handled differently. People can't properly judge the skill on it's merits when they haven't built their characters to utilize it.

"

FaceLicker wrote:

First of all, you asked 1 Question and I answered it quite plainly. If it's unsatisfactory, that's not my problem but I'll try address it better anyway. This will all be in a spoiler tag because it's lengthy and I'm not trying to derail the thread with this crap.

You seem upset.

Here's the question you still haven't answered:

"

TheRabbit303 wrote:

Please tell me what a "good cold build" is?

But hey, good work writing another 8 paragraphs and linking a bunch of elemental gear without providing a build.

Here, I'll do this for you, I'll use my characters rough cold build and apply it to Shiversting and those 2 rings. I'll even leave off the 45% lightning elemental damage, since you seemed to have a problem with that.


Anger: 50-82 Fire Damage (67 Average)
Wrath: 10-154 Lightning Damage (82 Average)
Hatred: 33-64 Cold Damage (49 Average)

Pretty sweet! Hatred is all the way up to dealing 73% of the damage that Anger does!

Ok, so now that I've refuted it again (with extra sarcasm thanks to your condescending tone), will you answer my original question of:

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TheRabbit303 wrote:

Please tell me what a "good cold build" is?

It's apparent now that you require this to be spelled out for you. I knew you were thick but I didn't realize it had to come to this. Perhaps it's my fault though. Here's an example of my lvl 65 Cold Bow Shadow with the relevant damage numbers just like yours. It's a decent mix of Elemental, and Crit and Physical although a little low on the Physical side but that's my preference. It's a glass cannon for Default. By no means is it perfect, everyone has their own idea of what a good build is. I'll use your gems for damage values. Feel free to correct me if my math is wrong, it's a lot of values to keep track of. Damage won't be exact because I'm just taking all the rounded totals.


20% physical damage and 105% cold damage. Is your brain turned on? How in the world is that 'high physical and high cold damage'? We both agree on how to make Hatred effctive, why is that you refuse to let go of your elemental focus and instead opt for a cold damage focus? And why are you still stuck on total DPS? Cold Damage doesn't need values as high as Fire or Lightning to be effective.

Like I said though, the build you already have can easily be converted to a true dedicated cold damage build. We utilize basically the same passives.

What have we learned from our combined posts? Hatred is quite ineffective for an all out Low Physical/High Elemental Build but is superb for a dedicated High Physical/Cold build. When used properly, All 3 Auras are extremely powerful in their own right. Cold Damage, by it's nature is in my opinion the most powerful for reasons I've already expressed and for those reasons is limited to smaller values compared to the other elements(GGG didn't do that by mistake). Also, Hatred's mana reservation, in my opinion, is quite low compared to it's potential damage output.

"

Ok, so now that I've refuted it again (with extra sarcasm thanks to your condescending tone)

Refuted? You've done nothing of the sort, the only thing that you've done is reinforce my point and that is you can't use a typical all-rounder elemental build with Hatred. Please note the build I posted for a build that atually does specialize in Cold Damage by gaining a substantial benefit from Hatred.

You messed up all 3 of your aura calculations:

Anger: 79-128
Wrath: 13-215
Hatred: 120-300

Are the correct numbers for the Shadow Build you posted.

Also the totals you posted don't add up, but you've made your point.

You still never really posted a passive skill tree, but at least you posted a summary, that's all I've been asking you to do for the past page of this thread.

Thanks!

(Also the rings are 9-26 physical, it looks like you carried this error through the end).

So, like I said a page or so ago, in order to make Hatred provide more DPS than Anger or Wrath you need to build your character to have both Physical and Elemental damage, and gear yourself favoring Physical damage over Elemental damage.

Side note: Your normal attack in game should list these numbers:
212-531 Physical Damage
147-265 Fire Damage
396-804 Cold Damage
39-479 Lightning Damage

The passive tree is at the top of the spolier. I may have edited it in after you already looked at the post.

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FaceLicker wrote:

Shadow Build - Relevant Passives/Gear

Lvl 65 Shadow

Equipment

I see where I screwed up with the aura calculations, I didnt account for the projectile damage. And yeah.. totally butchered the Hatred calculation.