Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

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Bars wrote:

It's because he's pretty much a SJW. Trying to be a SJW will do that to you. Steer clear of all that social and political shit for a happy life is what I would recommend. Source: I don't read news, I don't give a fuck about social issues, not on antidepressants and don't need them.

Precisely. There are 7 billion people on the planet and if you spend your time getting upset every time one of them does something you don't like, you are going to be miserable no matter how much breakfast you eat.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

The fundamental problem I have with him is that he follows all his own advice, and is still on anti-depressants. That is not a trivial point. He cleaned his room, he took on responsibility, he became a specialist with a skill, he achieved financial success, he has a big iq, he eats all the diet stuff he says to, and at the end of it he is still on anti depressants. Following his own steps hasn't led him to any sense of personal enlightenment or inner peace, he's still angry and frustrated and depressed, and he's admitted this. I think it's an astonishingly important and oft overlooked point.

Two points. First it turns out that ignorance is bliss, being a good productive community member often doesn't make you happy, but it makes you a better person. Second depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain, it's a medical issue, and no amount of self help can really beat it, you need to drugs.

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j33bus wrote:

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MonstaMunch wrote:

The fundamental problem I have with him is that he follows all his own advice, and is still on anti-depressants. That is not a trivial point. He cleaned his room, he took on responsibility, he became a specialist with a skill, he achieved financial success, he has a big iq, he eats all the diet stuff he says to, and at the end of it he is still on anti depressants. Following his own steps hasn't led him to any sense of personal enlightenment or inner peace, he's still angry and frustrated and depressed, and he's admitted this. I think it's an astonishingly important and oft overlooked point.

Two points. First it turns out that ignorance is bliss, being a good productive community member often doesn't make you happy, but it makes you a better person. Second depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain, it's a medical issue, and no amount of self help can really beat it, you need to drugs.

Wrong. "Depression" is an umbrella term for a symptom which can be caused by a whole bunch of different issues, some of them perhaps requiring medication, some of them - not necessarily. Some antidepressants, SSRIs for examples, have significant side effects and are not to be trifled with. It should be approached on a strict case-by-case basis.

There are times where it's healthy to be angry and unhealthy to not to be; where it's healthy to be afraid and unhealthy not to be; where it's healthy to be anxious and unhealthy not to be; where it's healthy to be sad and unhealthy not to be. Yet I fear many of us have stigmatized "bad" feels to the point that a healthy reaction to stimuli is viewed as mental illness: madness, phobia, paranoia, depression.

The cost of high standards is disappointment. Peterson's teachings of personal responsibility and non-scapegoating are about holding one's own self to high standards, which means routinely disappointing oneself if followed seriously. The conscientious man who sees all he could have done better is seldom happy; arguably the saddest song I've heard is titled "All That Could Have Been." If Peterson was often happy, he would be a hypocrite; he is merely practicing what he preaches.

Instead, I believe Peterson's ethos eschews happiness. I never received the impresssion that happiness is what he was selling; indeed, he routinely says that life is suffering. Instead, he seeems focused on doing the most good in the real world, feels be damned - and essentially instructs people, likely including himself, to emotionally manipulate themselves to better achieve the desired results. I am emphatically not saying Peterson doesn't understand feelings - as a clinical psychologist, they are his niche of expertise - but instead that he applies this knowledge not in the service of emotionality, but in the service of a higher (sustainable) physical and cultural standard of living. He is a psychologist who sees the psyche as a means to an end.

I think that's why Peterson's message has such appeal. Caring about your emotional well-being in a world where God is dead and Heaven is a lie seems awfully selfish and nihilistic - at some point one inevitably dies and all those feels vanish into the void, and the purpose of one's life perishes with oneself. By rejecting an easy self-contentment, students of Peterson focus on the impact they can have on a world that persists after they leave it. A secular afterlife in exchange for the discipline to refrain from the sin of self-satisfaction.

So basically, I believe Peterson is intentionally depressed. It's what he believes virtue looks like. It's what he's selling: "blame yourself."

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

There are times where it's healthy to be angry and unhealthy to not to be; where it's healthy to be afraid and unhealthy not to be; where it's healthy to be anxious and unhealthy not to be; where it's healthy to be sad and unhealthy not to be. Yet I fear many of us have stigmatized "bad" feels to the point that a healthy reaction to stimuli is viewed as mental illness: madness, phobia, paranoia, depression.

The cost of high standards is disappointment. Peterson's teachings of personal responsibility and non-scapegoating are about holding one's own self to high standards, which means routinely disappointing oneself if followed seriously. The conscientious man who sees all he could have done better is seldom happy; arguably the saddest song I've heard is titled "All That Could Have Been." If Peterson was often happy, he would be a hypocrite; he is merely practicing what he preaches.

Instead, I believe Peterson's ethos eschews happiness. I never received the impresssion that happiness is what he was selling; indeed, he routinely says that life is suffering. Instead, he seeems focused on doing the most good in the real world, feels be damned - and essentially instructs people, likely including himself, to emotionally manipulate themselves to better achieve the desired results. I am emphatically not saying Peterson doesn't understand feelings - as a clinical psychologist, they are his niche of expertise - but instead that he applies this knowledge not in the service of emotionality, but in the service of a higher (sustainable) physical and cultural standard of living. He is a psychologist who sees the psyche as a means to an end.

I think that's why Peterson's message has such appeal. Caring about your emotional well-being in a world where God is dead and Heaven is a lie seems awfully selfish and nihilistic - at some point one inevitably dies and all those feels vanish into the void, and the purpose of one's life perishes with oneself. By rejecting an easy self-contentment, students of Peterson focus on the impact they can have on a world that persists after they leave it. A secular afterlife in exchange for the discipline to refrain from the sin of self-satisfaction.

So basically, I believe Peterson is intentionally depressed. It's what he believes virtue looks like. It's what he's selling: "blame yourself."

That's what he's selling, and I'm not buying. I'm not big on the whole blaming thing, regardless of whom it's pointed at - oneself or others.

Despite my lack of enthusiasm for his social agenda, I still appreciate and enjoy his lectures.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Instead, I believe Peterson's ethos eschews happiness. I never received the impresssion that happiness is what he was selling; indeed, he routinely says that life is suffering.

I respectfully think you have completely misunderstood. His "Future Authoring" program makes the goal very clear:

"The Future Authoring Program helps you envision a meaningful, healthy and productive future, three to five years down the road, and to develop a detailed, implementable plan to make that future a reality.

People who spend time writing carefully about themselves become happier, less anxious and depressed and physically healthier. They become more productive, persistent and engaged in life. This is because thinking about where you came from, who you are and where you are going helps you chart a simpler and more rewarding path through life."

There is nothing about that to suggest that he thinks spending your whole like being angry and frustrated and depressed is somehow virtuous (because it's not). Yes, he says that life is full of suffering, but that we need to try to make it as bearable for ourselves as we can. He may be right but he doesn't offer a viable path out of anguish.

For anyone looking into stuff that may actually make them feel happier and more fulfilled, I recommend Kurt Goldstein and Abraham Maslow. There are obvious issues and inconsistencies with some of their ideas, but I've still found them very useful in getting myself back on track mentally.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Instead, I believe Peterson's ethos eschews happiness. I never received the impresssion that happiness is what he was selling; indeed, he routinely says that life is suffering.

I respectfully think you have completely misunderstood. His "Future Authoring" program makes the goal very clear:

"The Future Authoring Program helps you envision a meaningful, healthy and productive future, three to five years down the road, and to develop a detailed, implementable plan to make that future a reality.

Bold mine.

Of those three adjectives, only one can be interpreted as remotely emotional. "Healthy" and "productive" are based on empirical evidence, not feels. "Meaningful" isn't particularly emotional, either, although it's a bit more nebulous; still, I contend that Peterson does not view self-satisfaction as meaningful. There's no mention there of joy, pleasure, self-confidence, or anything like that - because those aren't things Peterson cares about, at least not as ends-in-themselves.

Maybe you're the one who has misunderstood.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Maybe you're the one who has misunderstood.

You conveniently only bolded bits from the first paragraph. Here's my attempt at bolding the bits from the second....

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People who spend time writing carefully about themselves become happier, less anxious and depressed and physically healthier

That's the stated goal, not a lifetime of misery just because it's somehow virtuous.

Again, he has followed all his advice and he's not happy, he's still anxious, still depressed, and doesn't look like a paragon of healthy living. It's like having a clinically obese personal trainer.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

Again, he has followed all his advice and he's not happy, he's still anxious, still depressed, and doesn't look like a paragon of healthy living. It's like having a clinically obese personal trainer.

Stick to Peterson for the psychology and metaphysics, go to Alan Watts for the happiness.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alan+watts+lectures

When fake news labels you "alt-right" which leads to the video having probably the worst like/dislike ratio in Youtube history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCGewQc9ktA