RNG-itis: a cure without (notably) changing probability

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Courageous wrote:

The problem is extremely simple:

Some folks are exposed to unusually bad luck. That is all.

For short durations. You cannot prove that for some reason POE breaks the well established principles of random number generators. People may have bad luck sprees, but they don't last forever and there are many mitigating circumstances. Furthermore, most players over-report "bad luck" and under-report "good luck" so their perception of luck is always skewed, even when they get a fair deal in the end.

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As a business person, one should be concerned about unusual circumstances that might potentially drive customers away; if an easy fix that does little to the overall drop rate exists, why not make it go away?

That's it.

Simple. Elegant. You and I know it doesn't change much, truthfully. But it quiets a certain portion of the population, and that is more than a little worthwhile.

IMO.

Mind you, I don't know that it matters to the degree that it requires any kind of present developer intervention. And yet, if they were designing the game from the start, I would recommend a biased random number generator like this from the start, just for this very simple business reason.

As a business person, you might know, that it's better to piss off half the community and to gain the favor of the other half, than to try and "please them all". This is what POE is designed to do - it is a niche market. It captures the niche market. And when I see someone like Kripp play (I don't necessarily like kripp, but he's a good example because he's popular), I see his face light up when he gets a string of good luck in race! And when he gets a string of bad luck? Well, nobody likes bad luck, and Kripp will whine he was cursed, but it's bad luck that defines good luck; once you've had some bad luck sprees, good luck sprees become fun. They become exciting. And they give unskilled players ways to compete and gain entry into the market.

When a new player picks up a mirror in twilight strand at level 1, and he's instantly very rich, POE has probably secured a potential customer. Altering RNG potentially could destroy that phenomenon, by altering the value of certain items or preventing the circumstance like that, at all.

If I were designing a game to make money, I would make a good game first, and a streamlined skinner box second.

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anubite wrote:

You didn't really give a reason. You said "people will be turned off". Well, tough. People get turned off to POE because it's an RPG and not an FPS, yet, I don't see guns in the game yet.

What exactly is so frustrating about RNG? You're saying everything in the game needs to be deterministic? Why? What's so bad about not getting loot for a few hours, only to get it in surge a few hours (or days) later.

RNG, over long periods of time, is consistent and fair. The only people complaining about RNG complain about it in the short term. They whine about not getting a 6L in 1000 fusings, but fail to realize that in a year of play, they'll probably get 2 or 3 6Ls. Do you think they wlil complain then?

You can't just put RNG into everything, that sought of mentality is stupid. The game needs consistant structured elements just as it needs RNG, and there is also "good" RNG and bad "RNG"

The thing is, at least in terms of sockets and fusings, this is an example of bad RNG. Its bad, because the RNG is actually effecting your skill build (you know, gems are placed in the sockets which determine your skills). As I said before, PoE is the only game that does this, normally every type of RPG of this kind has complete structure AND certainty in skill builds (which is the identity of your actual character in the game).

Having randomness effect your actual skills is whats the real problem, and hence why I am a proponent of putting either entropy into the sockets/links or removing the RNG entirely and replacing it with a different mechanic (although this may be too much work)

I mean think about it this way, there is a reason why people are mainly complaining specifically about sockets/links and not other mods on gear, its because the other mods on the gear don't effect your skills (or the identity of your exile) at all, sockets and links do.

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You can't just put RNG into everything, that sought of mentality is stupid.

Where did I even imply that? It's everyone else who's implying there shouldn't EVER be RNG in a video game here. I'm not one to such extreme opinions. I think there is a place for deterministic RNG, but I don't see its place in any of the elements the OP describes.

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The game needs consistant structured elements just as it needs RNG, and there is also "good" RNG and bad "RNG"

What is good and bad RNG? That hasn't been defined at all here yet. The closest to it was my earlier comment about evasion, but even the truly random evasion could be fun, under the right circumstances (though notably, not in the current state of the game).

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The thing is, at least in terms of sockets and fusings, this is an example of bad RNG. Its bad, because the RNG is actually effecting your skill build (you know, gems are placed in the sockets which determine your skills). As I said before, PoE is the only game that does this, normally every type of RPG of this kind has complete structure AND certainty in skill builds (which is the identity of your actual character in the game).

Okay, there's something we can talk about. 'Rng is bad because it limits builds'.

That's a fair statement to make, but I would counter it by saying there are and will be more uniques that lets you "bypass" not needing a 5 or 6L. Like Rime Gaze? That's a 5L helmet, right there. Easily available in the economy. It's cheaper than 5L too, I bet. And they can add more items like these, to accommodate builds with fair amounts of power and accessibility.

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I mean think about it this way, there is a reason why people are mainly complaining specifically about sockets/links and not other mods on gear, its because the other mods on the gear don't effect your skills (or the identity of your exile) at all, sockets and links do.

The main reason they are complaining is

1. Some builds (like Templar builds) require a lot of blue, red and green sockets. It's hard to get the right numbers of these when you have low resources available.

2. Sockets are powerful in POE. Each socket you add to a skill gem can potentially increase its power by a factor of 2 or more. But, such power cannot be granted easily to players or the game is ruined; players must EARN their power. Being given it casually destroys the game.

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anubite wrote:

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The thing is, at least in terms of sockets and fusings, this is an example of bad RNG. Its bad, because the RNG is actually effecting your skill build (you know, gems are placed in the sockets which determine your skills). As I said before, PoE is the only game that does this, normally every type of RPG of this kind has complete structure AND certainty in skill builds (which is the identity of your actual character in the game).

Okay, there's something we can talk about. 'Rng is bad because it limits builds'.

That's a fair statement to make, but I would counter it by saying there are and will be more uniques that lets you "bypass" not needing a 5 or 6L. Like Rime Gaze? That's a 5L helmet, right there. Easily available in the economy. It's cheaper than 5L too, I bet. And they can add more items like these, to accommodate builds with fair amounts of power and accessibility.

Yeah well, the thing is, uniques are also (meant) to be incredibly rare, so this isn't really a solution. You are fixing bad rng with more rng ;)

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The main reason they are complaining is

1. Some builds (like Templar builds) require a lot of blue, red and green sockets. It's hard to get the right numbers of these when you have low resources available.

2. Sockets are powerful in POE. Each socket you add to a skill gem can potentially increase its power by a factor of 2 or more. But, such power cannot be granted easily to players or the game is ruined; players must EARN their power. Being given it casually destroys the game.

I know the reason why they are complaining, its just in my opinion PoE would be better off with removing the RNG from sockets and fusings. Obviously still make it very difficult to get a 5L/6L, but make that difficulty deterministic and something people can plan for

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Yeah well, the thing is, uniques are also (meant) to be incredibly rare, so this isn't really a solution. You are fixing bad rng with more rng ;)

But... they're not? I'm pretty sure Rime Gaze is pretty common.

Uniques follow into three stratifications:
common
uncommon
rare

They have drop rates to reflect this stratification.
Common uniques are so abundant, even on HC, common uniques go for like a chaos.

Now, granted, items like Astramentis are 'build enabling' since they remove attribute requirements for most builds, but most build enabling uniques are of the common variety.

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I know the reason why they are complaining, its just in my opinion PoE would be better off with removing the RNG from sockets and fusings. Obviously still make it very difficult to get a 5L/6L, but make that difficulty deterministic and something people can plan for

I disagree. I think the lottery system is fun. If it's too frustrating, then as I've suggested - instead of tweaking RNG (which could have disastrous, irreversible consequences), just introduce more currency items. If you want a 6L, go buy that mirror-like item that turns any chest or 2h into a 6L. Sure, it'll be expensive, but it won't be random. Buying something in the economy removes the randomness factor from POE in sufficient quantities. This is also why uniques are a way to solve 5/6L. You honestly cannot expect the game to "deterministically drop items you need" because that would require a rather silly algorithim (and would honestly cause the game to "play itself").

Frustration is a negative emotion but we NEED negative emotions to make the positive ones meaningful. People get frustrated over not having a 5L, so the fuck what? It means when they get it, they'll feel great about it. Homogenizing this phenomenon is likely why I find many games that are made today to be boring and trivial. Being forced to accomodate your build's inefficiencies created by luck/itemization add depth to the game.

Now, when there are factors that stifle creativity, we can do things to correct this, but I don't like the idea of changing the game to remove all frustration from it. That's bad design.

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For short durations.

And when you encounter the person who has a long duration sequence, instead of a short duration sequence? Or even one who merely says they do?

No, especially the one who says they do. This person, you can say "no you didn't."

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You cannot prove that for some reason POE breaks the well established principles of random number generators.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Why would I be interesting in proving this? Why are you refuting statements that I have never made, and have no interest in? I assure you, I am well acquainted with the "principles of random number generators," and do not require education regarding them.

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As a business person, you might know, that it's better to piss off half the community and to gain the favor of the other half, than to try and "please them all".

In no way would this alienate the niche in any way.

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And when he gets a string of bad luck?

One angle to take on this, is a guarantee against especially bad luck. Not just bad luck, but especially bad. So for example, if the odds are 1:N, you might intervene at 1:2N, or even 1:3N. That's just fine tuning.

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Courageous wrote:

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For short durations.

And when you encounter the person who has a long duration sequence, instead of a short duration sequence? Or even one who merely says they do?

They are a very strange aberration. RNG does not behave this way. If you want to suggest there are people, who over a year of playing a game, have significantly less luck than another, in terms of wealth for equal hours of play and other factors -- then GGG needs to fix their RNG code. Because that's not correct behavior. Computer-RNG is not true "chaos" but it's pretty good at what it does and emulates real chaos effectively. To suggest there is a widespread amount of "people over long durations getting bad luck" is purely based on some kind of internal bias.

Of course, that is just my speculating. I don't work for GGG.

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As a business person, you might know, that it's better to piss off half the community and to gain the favor of the other half, than to try and "please them all".

In no way would this alienate the niche in any way.

The definition of carving a niche is to alienate the non-niche market. When you decide to plant your computer business in someplace other than silicon valley, you're alienating a job market. By alienating that market, you gain access to another. This is all basic theory. I can cite sources if you want to argue about this. You can't please everybody all the time. You have to make calls that alienate and befriend people.

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This is all basic theory. I can cite sources if you want to argue about this.

To be candid, I don't particularly care for the way that you interact with me. It is rude. We need not interact further, insofar as you insist on continuing to be condescending.

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anubite wrote:

I disagree. I think the lottery system is fun. If it's too frustrating, then as I've suggested - instead of tweaking RNG (which could have disastrous, irreversible consequences), just introduce more currency items. If you want a 6L, go buy that mirror-like item that turns any chest or 2h into a 6L. Sure, it'll be expensive, but it won't be random.

You can't fix these kind of things with currency because it fluctuates too much. This is something that should be consistent and determined, not subject to either market conditions or RNG

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anubite wrote:

Frustration is a negative emotion but we NEED negative emotions to make the positive ones meaningful. People get frustrated over not having a 5L, so the fuck what? It means when they get it, they'll feel great about it. Homogenizing this phenomenon is likely why I find many games that are made today to be boring and trivial. Being forced to accomodate your build's inefficiencies created by luck/itemization add depth to the game.

Im sorry, but frustration != depth at all. This is some sought of elitist D2 mentality which PoE type players are bringing over.

Depth means complex mechanics that allow you to do various things.

Although frustration is good in small doses because it forces you to think in a different way to solve a problem, too much of it is just plain stupid. Its like what yatzi said about Dead Souls, there is a difference in being "difficult" and just plain completely demoralizing the eplayer when they first start the game

Character progression is not an area, that should be frustrating or random at ALL. Period. Put frustrating elements in battles, in skills (like the random nature of spark) but don't put it in character progression

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anubite wrote:

Now, when there are factors that stifle creativity, we can do things to correct this, but I don't like the idea of changing the game to remove all frustration from it. That's bad design.

And equally speaking, we shouldn't encourage a game where its all frustration, because for a majority of players (especially when they hit merciless/end of cruel) the majority of the game does become frustrating, and its because of this whole "lets make things difficult for difficulties sake" mentality that is going around

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anubite wrote:

When a new player picks up a mirror in twilight strand at level 1, and he's instantly very rich

He assumes it's common and uses it on that 1h rare Hillock dropped so he can dual wield, or gives it away in a lopsided trade.