Summon Specter + GMP = Broken?

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Obscurin wrote:

I believe Summon Specter + GMP + LMP is more broken.

Having spectres spray out a bunch of shots that do little damage isnt broken, its just colourful.

As for support gems, pretty much ANY support gem wil work with spectres you just need to match them up appropriately.

Originally each of the +minion nodes gave +1 spectre as well for about 5 total without uniques, although they were weaker than the current ones.

The sword is pretty junk as well, I'd rather have a good shield + necro aegis and EMPTY main hand than that thing. the ~180% increased skel duration would be nice if they followed you like zombies.

also afaik you can dual wield the wand to get 5 spectres in total, although i'd still rather have a shield for aegis.

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Faction3 wrote:

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Ultralisk153 wrote:

but the sword is crap. and getting a 6 socket one is harder then getting 3 in wand 3 in shield and the links needed.

Welp, I'll g'head and keep the sword, and those who think it's crap can spend the 25+ GCP for the Wand while the Sword serves the EXACT SAME PURPOSE, and I'll use only half of that to get my links and sockets required.

And I can guarantee I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with the exact same stats applied to them.

But I'll have 30% more HP.

Depends on what your purpose is, having a shield can be an massive boost to resistance/energy shield, mana and general nice features. Alot of players is going with firesummoner, but with the low spell dmg on the wand an Rathpith Globe or better rolled rare is helping alot with dmg.

While the sword is utterly crap when it comes to damage, not the mention using a 2h completely prevent you from going Necromantic Aegis. Which can boost your minions even further than the pity 2h sword.


Not to mention, if you know how the maps well and how to avoid taking damage. Using 2x Midnight Bargain + boots will bring you up to 5 Spectres along with more skeletons/zombies.

Not to sound rude or anything, but its not smart trying to lecture people how to play. When you haven't done the research to see it from both perspective :)

The summoner spec is so damn boring to play that anyone who can actually put up with it, AND can find a group that will have them, deserves to be OP imo.

Yeah I have a summoner alt. Level 21 only. Fell asleep last time I played it.

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Psyborg wrote:

I was playing with my friend who is a Witch MM. We thought of linking his specters to Greater Multiple Projectiles (I'm sure it's been thought of before), and he went to Lunaris to grab 4 Tentacle Miscreations.

My first question is, was this intended to even work? I ask this because the cost of GMP is very high, but it only affects the MM once, upon summoning. It is VERY POWERFUL. The spread of projectiles filled entire hallways, mowing down everything in our path. Tentacle Miscreations already fire entire volleys quickly and repeatedly. It didn't hurt that I was using Projectile Weakness and firing thousands of arrows myself.

What do people think about this? I've always thought that Minion Masters are "THE" most powerful single player class in any ARPG, and as a fan of game balance I've always disliked them...since what's the point of having 6 classes and tons of different ways to play each, if you can just have an army and walk through maps without being touched. Anyone else in the party isn't even needed, and in most games, when one method is "too easy", the difficulty gets shifted accordingly until that method is "required"...not saying GGG will go that direction though.

This combination seems way too powerful to me, did they even intend for GMP to work on summoned monsters?

Sorry mate but you´re wrong.
Let me tell you why and let me do some calculations for you.

I´m playing a summoner myself and heavily depend on my spectres because they are my main source of dmg. Zombies and Skeletons actually function as a "shield" while the spectres deal the most damage.

BUT:

GMP is not broken. It actually depends which mobs you chose as spectres - for some it´s a great support gem, for others it isn´t.

Let´s take flame sentinels for example (which are the strongest spectres you can have in my personal oppinion)

They already have a "built in" LMP, that means, they already fire 3 fireballs.
Adding a GMP changes that to 5 fireballs at the cost of 50% of their total damage - which results in LESS damage than before.
In this case it is far better to use Fork (6 Fireballs) or even Chain (up to 9 impacts).

Concerning tentacle miscreations: Yes, they´re powerfull with GMP. But have you seen them with faster projectiles, faster attack and minion speed? THAT´S strong. It´s like a constant beam of projectiles which cut through anything.

So - what are you actually saying? Nerf summoners? Take away the ability to support spectres by support gems? This would break the whole build and render a whole class useless because if you look at the raise spectre gem you will see that those spectres only deal 50% of their original damage.

Also please consider what it takes to make your spectres effective and powerfull! You need very specific passives and gear and you sacrifice a ton of usefull skillpoints and stats on your gear.

Each class has their "OP builds", have you ever seen an end-game ranger in merciless? They´re moving and killing so fast that I need to spam potions to keep up with them while trying to keep my minions alive and somehow close to me.

Long story short:
GMP is not broken. It´s an option for some spectres but not neccessarily the best.

@IAmLoco: Thanks!

And thanks everyone for the discussion. I wasnt sure they intended GMP/LMP to support specters since the main downside to it is a lot more mana used for each shot. Specters bypass the tradeoff. I still think MM is the best solo build, but as someone pointed out, some find it boring to play (myself included).

I will hopefully soon have an endgame ranger and I can see where youre coming from on that, I am very fast and damaging and I dont consider any of my gear to be endgame yet.

Im not saying nerf summoners, I was more curious about how likely that specific combination is to be nerfed. I almost died a few times just watching what was going on lol. Also, I was actually the one who found the Bones of Ullr (boots) for my friend lol and then he bought I think its Queens decree (sword) or something. I know not every toon has those.

I play a summoner, and I just started using GMP with my specters. I am level 70 and doing maps (low level ones so far). GMP with the right mobs is amazing, but here's the thing..

If you want to get say tentacle miscreations, then you have to go find some of them, which can take time depending on RNG. So whatever extra speed you get from having them on a map is greatly reduced by the time that was needed to go pick them up. The second thing is that they are most likely going to die during a map.. from aoe damage, or being dumb and standing next to melee monsters, or whatever. At that point, you have to hope that your map has good ranged specters available.. which is often not the case. Random melee specters are nothing special at all. Also consider that as map level increases, act 3 merciless specters will become relatively weak, making it matter more just what random monsters appear in a map.

Given all of this, it isnt obvious to me that going for the unique boots+wand to get 4 specters is really worth it, rather than significantly better survivability (I play hardcore, I guess on softcore you might as well get the extra specters). I dont see anything broken here, just something fun and very strong.

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Psyborg wrote:

@IAmLoco: Thanks!

And thanks everyone for the discussion. I wasnt sure they intended GMP/LMP to support specters since the main downside to it is a lot more mana used for each shot. Specters bypass the tradeoff. I still think MM is the best solo build, but as someone pointed out, some find it boring to play (myself included).

I will hopefully soon have an endgame ranger and I can see where youre coming from on that, I am very fast and damaging and I dont consider any of my gear to be endgame yet.

Im not saying nerf summoners, I was more curious about how likely that specific combination is to be nerfed. I almost died a few times just watching what was going on lol. Also, I was actually the one who found the Bones of Ullr (boots) for my friend lol and then he bought I think its Queens decree (sword) or something. I know not every toon has those.

It does come with a downside. You lose 30/50% of your projectile damage for linking it. G/LMP is only valuable on very specific spectres and clearly useless on others. The offset of not having a constant +50/100% manacost is that they have to keep their spectres alive.

Would you rather just spend extra mana or would you have to constantly worry about your spectres?

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Rmpz wrote:

Depends on what your purpose is, having a shield can be an massive boost to resistance/energy shield, mana and general nice features. Alot of players is going with firesummoner, but with the low spell dmg on the wand an Rathpith Globe or better rolled rare is helping alot with dmg.

While the sword is utterly crap when it comes to damage, not the mention using a 2h completely prevent you from going Necromantic Aegis. Which can boost your minions even further than the pity 2h sword.


Not to mention, if you know how the maps well and how to avoid taking damage. Using 2x Midnight Bargain + boots will bring you up to 5 Spectres along with more skeletons/zombies.

Not to sound rude or anything, but its not smart trying to lecture people how to play. When you haven't done the research to see it from both perspective :)

Settle down, champ. Nobody is lecturing anything. I've done the research, and seen the (zero) offensive difference, and the massive cost difference when they both serve the exact same purpose. Sure, you can DW the Bargain, lose 60% of your HP, and probably get 1-shot in Merciless, lose a shit-ton of XP, but gain one extra Spectre...sure, that's an advantage I can understand. Also the few minor boosts a Shield in general will give me I can live without, as I play to keep my Undead Legion alive, nothing else matters.

However, I still do not see the advantage of losing 30% health just run with a Shield that becomes useless to your survival once you get NAegis to buff your minions...I can strap a Blood Magic support gem to 2 or 3 Auras and boost my minion damage more than NAegis + Shield, and still not lose 30% health, and then I can completely surpass the usefulness of NAegis with Animation Flasks, which provide more Regen to my Minions than any mod on a Shield ever can.

And IMO, Saturated Animation Flasks make NAegis obsolete, because whatever armor bonus or statistical advantage a shield gives to a Minion through NAegis (besides IIQ / IIR) I can surpass simply by keeping them alive longer. Personally, Eldrich Battery is a much better choice for a pure Necromancer than NAegis, because EB allows you to run up to 5 Auras, giving ALOT more damage & utility than even the best Shield + Aegis can ever dream of, and my Character, as well as my Minions benefit from Auras, not just my Minions based on the Shield I'm carrying.

Meanwhile, through all that (notwithstanding the 2 Bargains), I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with the exact same stats applied to them.

And I'll STILL have more HP.

You talk down about research and lecturing, when it's obvious you've not done any kind yourself. Most hate on the Sword comes from people trying to justify paying upwards of 20GCP for a Wand that they later realize serves the same purpose as the Sword, but the Sword saves 30% Health, loses the ability to use a Shield (which all the Shield does is either attempt to make up for the -30% Health, or become fodder for NAegis), and criticize those who call it for what it does & is: The. Same. Exact. Thing.

Call me fail, a baddie, a n00b, anything you like...but as I said many times before, I'll say it AGAIN: I guarantee I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with almost the exact same stats applied to them.

But I'll have more HP, and 17 times the currency leftover.

So g'head on with your Bargain-rockin' self. You're doing nothing faster or better than I am.

And that's not lecturing, champ, that's a goddamn fact.

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Faction3 wrote:

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Rmpz wrote:

Depends on what your purpose is, having a shield can be an massive boost to resistance/energy shield, mana and general nice features. Alot of players is going with firesummoner, but with the low spell dmg on the wand an Rathpith Globe or better rolled rare is helping alot with dmg.

While the sword is utterly crap when it comes to damage, not the mention using a 2h completely prevent you from going Necromantic Aegis. Which can boost your minions even further than the pity 2h sword.


Not to mention, if you know how the maps well and how to avoid taking damage. Using 2x Midnight Bargain + boots will bring you up to 5 Spectres along with more skeletons/zombies.

Not to sound rude or anything, but its not smart trying to lecture people how to play. When you haven't done the research to see it from both perspective :)

Settle down, champ. Nobody is lecturing anything. I've done the research, and seen the (zero) offensive difference, and the massive cost difference when they both serve the exact same purpose. Sure, you can DW the Bargain, lose 60% of your HP, and probably get 1-shot in Merciless, lose a shit-ton of XP, but gain one extra Spectre...sure, that's an advantage I can understand. Also the few minor boosts a Shield in general will give me I can live without, as I play to keep my Undead Legion alive, nothing else matters.

However, I still do not see the advantage of losing 30% health just run with a Shield that becomes useless to your survival once you get NAegis to buff your minions...I can strap a Blood Magic support gem to 2 or 3 Auras and boost my minion damage more than NAegis + Shield, and still not lose 30% health, and then I can completely surpass the usefulness of NAegis with Animation Flasks, which provide more Regen to my Minions than any mod on a Shield ever can.

And IMO, Saturated Animation Flasks make NAegis obsolete, because whatever armor bonus or statistical advantage a shield gives to a Minion through NAegis (besides IIQ / IIR) I can surpass simply by keeping them alive longer.

Meanwhile, through all that (notwithstanding the 2 Bargains), I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with the exact same stats applied to them.

And I'll STILL have more HP.

You talk down about research and lecturing, when it's obvious you've not done any kind yourself. Most hate on the Sword comes from people trying to justify paying upwards of 20GCP for a Wand that they later realize serves the same purpose as the Sword, but the Sword saves 30% Health, loses the ability to use a Shield (which all the Shield does is either attempt to make up for the -30% Health, or become fodder for NAegis), and criticize those who call it for what it does & is: The. Same. Exact. Thing.

Call me fail, a baddie, a n00b, anything you like...but as I said many times before, I'll say it AGAIN: I guarantee I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with almost the exact same stats applied to them.

But I'll have more HP, and 17 times the currency leftover.

So g'head on with your Bargain-rockin' self. You're doing nothing faster or better than I am.

And that's not lecturing, champ, that's a goddamn fact.

Someone copy and paste this into the definition of butthurt on urban dictionary.

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imr1212 wrote:

Someone copy and paste this into the definition of butthurt on urban dictionary.

Go for it. I insist.

But I guarantee I'll kill just as fast as someone with the Wand, and have the exact same amount of Minions available, with almost the exact same stats applied to them.

But I'll have more HP, and 17 times the currency leftover.

Butthurt and all!