Death Penalties

There should be a penalties for dying. There must be something in a game that make you NOT want to die instead of "Bah.. I can just die anyway, nothings gonna happen and then i'll return to town and restack potions" or something like that.

Penalties... Maybe everything you have in your inventory/wearing is dropped on the ground. Not dissapearing, just dropped. Something that make you want/need to go there again. And if you're unlucky someone else might pick it up unless you get in within a few minutes?

People dont like when things happen to their caracter that they've built up. For ex, experience loss, stat loss or something like that. I personally just hate repair cost... so please dont make everything I wear broken when I die... I'm not a huge fan of exp loss either, but it works as long as you cant decrease levels. Ex, if you're level 80 with 0 exp and die, you dont turn level 79. thats just cruel.

But I think I'd still go with the item drops. Makes you mad, make you wanna return to the creature that killed you and maybe use another tactic to kill it. Im not sure if I'd rather have the things I wear to drop, or the stuff in my inventory... Its annoying, but it doesnt really change your character. You get a little pressure on you if you make other players able to pick things up after a while.

This is off topic.

This forum should be used more by the developers. One thread is kind of a shame when I'm sure there are still questions you're considering and issues that need to be dealt with. These threads don't need to be about profound topics like death penalties. They can be something as simple as 'does this item/ability sound cool'. Topics like mercs in the other forum should have been brought up first in this forum by the devs so the conversation could be more guided and constructive.

In general I think if you're more open with the community about these sort of things in terms of guiding and pushing conversations then you'll get more useful ideas and opinions out of the community. At the moment the community seems to splat out ideas and opinions at random and the whole thing is not as much of a useful conversation as it could.

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wakko wrote:

There should be a penalties for dying. There must be something in a game that make you NOT want to die instead of "Bah.. I can just die anyway, nothings gonna happen and then i'll return to town and restack potions" or something like that.

Penalties... Maybe everything you have in your inventory/wearing is dropped on the ground. Not dissapearing, just dropped. Something that make you want/need to go there again. And if you're unlucky someone else might pick it up unless you get in within a few minutes?

People dont like when things happen to their caracter that they've built up. For ex, experience loss, stat loss or something like that. I personally just hate repair cost... so please dont make everything I wear broken when I die... I'm not a huge fan of exp loss either, but it works as long as you cant decrease levels. Ex, if you're level 80 with 0 exp and die, you dont turn level 79. thats just cruel.

But I think I'd still go with the item drops. Makes you mad, make you wanna return to the creature that killed you and maybe use another tactic to kill it. Im not sure if I'd rather have the things I wear to drop, or the stuff in my inventory... Its annoying, but it doesnt really change your character. You get a little pressure on you if you make other players able to pick things up after a while.

I'd like to have my whole gear broken any day of the week instead of having the items I've spent weeks (or even months) finding taken away from me. If that is implemented, then you'd see dozens of people waiting over the dropped gear of a dead player just waiting fo when they could take it (there may even be cases of preventing the dead player from getting to his/her dropped gear).
As for penalties, I think that if a player is in a party, then the other members can take the dead player to the nearest town/checkpoint/safe zone to be revived.
And if a player is on his/her own, then I think the Ash's underworld idea is the best.
However, if the devs decide to go with it, they shouldn't make this Underworld section too long or too complicated. I'm imagining it as something like the Spectral Realm in Legacy of Kain where the player has to fight special Underworld monsters and can return to the Physical Realm only at special places (unless he uses a cheat code, that is :))

This is a big thread with lots of suggestions. I'm going to try to organize this post in a way that maximizes the value it adds to the discussion (wish me luck).

Qualifications

I consider myself an avid fan of the fantasy-based RPG. I'd probably be playing in the default league, and I suspect my opinions would be considered fairly mainstream.

Death Penalty, Why?

I like a fairly steep death penalty, because I think it adds to the immersion factor of a game: if you make me really, really, NOT want to die, that's one good way to make me identify with my character.

Goals

If there's going to be a penalty, lets agree on some goals for it.
First, it should be harsh enough that most people won't completely disregard it.
Second, it should be lenient enough that most people won't feel a desire to "just do something else" for a while upon dying.
Third, as a bonus, it could potentially encourage the player to continue.
Fourth, as has been mentioned already, the death penalty could be used to help remove currency from the game.

What's Undesirable, and Why

Respawning exactly where you died: Whatever just killed you will probably kill you again, and maybe again and again, really pissing you off.

"Corpse Run", where all your equipped gear is left at your corpse, and you must physically touch it to reequip: See above.

"Death Sickness" type of debuff: Players will grow impatient if they feel gimped enough to need to just sit around waiting to regain enough power to continue playing - if it's too short a time period, it's ineffective as a penalty, but if it's too long, it's a drag, and diminishes immersion.

Gear loss: As has been mentioned, people "worked" hard for their gear - in the default league, at least, they won't savor the proposition of losing something in a brief moment of ineptitude, misjudgment, or LAG.

Experience Loss: This is potentially frustrating for players, especially in the case where it causes de-leveling. The spell/ability/gear implications could be catastrophic if someone loses the ability to wear specific pieces of gear.

Suggestions

Choices

While potentially more tricky to code/balance, just about everyone loves to have a choice, even when concerning a penalty. If choices can be incorporated into the death penalty system, it stands an excellent chance of being accepted by most, as opposed to being loathed by most. I think the important distinction there is that you want the general consensus to be "I really don't want to die.", but not "I don't want to die, because the death penalty really sucks!". Below I've listed some components for the penalty - each is presented in a modular form, with my vision of the final penalty being some combination of them.

Respawning close to where you die: When you die, your mouse cursor turns into a silhouette of a resurrection shrine - you can now place this shrine, within a limited range, at a spot your character has traveled, within range of his/her exact steps, going back as far as about 50 paces.

Gear Degradation: This makes some sense - if your gear gets pounded on enough, it's going to get damaged. Provide a way to get it repaired for a price, and make that price sting a bit.

Experience Debt: With a debt system, you won't actually lose experience to the point of deleveling. This eases the sting, while still providing a discouragement to accruing the debt.

Coin loss/gear recovery: Give players the option to revive back in town and/or at a checkpoint, but make them pay a certain amount - otherwise, they can choose to attempt a "naked corpse run" (or perhaps they've been shrewd enough to have a spare set of gear), and potentially recover their corpse with NO loss of coin involved.

Corpse Summoning: Force a player to run back to the general area of his corpse, which still has all the gear on it - but then, once the character is within a certain range, allow the corpse to be summoned to that player's feet for looting. This enforces the penalty of needing to run back to it, but with (usually) much less of a risk of repeated deaths from the monsters that initially killed you.

Adjustable Penalty: At the start of each gaming session, or at each checkpoint, allow players to choose between "risky" or "safe" with regard to penalty. For risky play, a death might result in a harsher penalty like a naked corpse run, but as a result, there could be some sort of experience and/or loot/coin bonus. For safe play, you'd revive at a checkpoint, with all of your gear, but there would be no bonuses involved.

Wow! Yeah, it's been a slow day at work, can you tell? Hopefully, this long post has some merit to it.

I like the idea of choices as well. Choices like these can help keep everyone happy and they can tailor their choice to their particular situation. Of course, the more choices that are given then the larger the death penalties will need to be to counter the fact that the player will always choose the option with the least negative consequences.

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Lino wrote:

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wakko wrote:

There should be a penalties for dying. There must be something in a game that make you NOT want to die instead of "Bah.. I can just die anyway, nothings gonna happen and then i'll return to town and restack potions" or something like that.

Penalties... Maybe everything you have in your inventory/wearing is dropped on the ground. Not dissapearing, just dropped. Something that make you want/need to go there again. And if you're unlucky someone else might pick it up unless you get in within a few minutes?

People dont like when things happen to their caracter that they've built up. For ex, experience loss, stat loss or something like that. I personally just hate repair cost... so please dont make everything I wear broken when I die... I'm not a huge fan of exp loss either, but it works as long as you cant decrease levels. Ex, if you're level 80 with 0 exp and die, you dont turn level 79. thats just cruel.

But I think I'd still go with the item drops. Makes you mad, make you wanna return to the creature that killed you and maybe use another tactic to kill it. Im not sure if I'd rather have the things I wear to drop, or the stuff in my inventory... Its annoying, but it doesnt really change your character. You get a little pressure on you if you make other players able to pick things up after a while.

I'd like to have my whole gear broken any day of the week instead of having the items I've spent weeks (or even months) finding taken away from me. If that is implemented, then you'd see dozens of people waiting over the dropped gear of a dead player just waiting fo when they could take it (there may even be cases of preventing the dead player from getting to his/her dropped gear).
As for penalties, I think that if a player is in a party, then the other members can take the dead player to the nearest town/checkpoint/safe zone to be revived.
And if a player is on his/her own, then I think the Ash's underworld idea is the best.
However, if the devs decide to go with it, they shouldn't make this Underworld section too long or too complicated. I'm imagining it as something like the Spectral Realm in Legacy of Kain where the player has to fight special Underworld monsters and can return to the Physical Realm only at special places (unless he uses a cheat code, that is :))

Hmm... I agree... being able to steal someones gear maybe isnt the say to go. Though I still think dropping the gear would still work.

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tpapp157 wrote:

I like the idea of choices as well. Choices like these can help keep everyone happy and they can tailor their choice to their particular situation. Of course, the more choices that are given then the larger the death penalties will need to be to counter the fact that the player will always choose the option with the least negative consequences.

Agreed, death is not a good thing. And people often tend to make it as easy as possible, except a few people who like it hardcore and play... well... harcore ;)

I dont like however, when games make me weaker when I die... like stats being reduced, skills/spells get weaker.

When I die, I tend to wanna go back there and fight again! try another tactic maybe, try different spells. Unless its the 10th time I die and I ragequit :P

As I said before, I like the concept with gear being dropped. NOT disappearing, just dropped when I die. It makes me mad, because I need too get down there again and get it. And when I have my gear again, I want revenge! Kill the turd that killed me in the first place.

This is my opinion however.. :)

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wakko wrote:

When I die, I tend to wanna go back there and fight again! try another tactic maybe, try different spells. Unless its the 10th time I die and I ragequit :P

You mean like delete character, than account, than deinstall game just to install it again and beg Devs to undo account / character deletion the next day?

Oh my, I did that like 100 times :o)))

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tormenta wrote:

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wakko wrote:

When I die, I tend to wanna go back there and fight again! try another tactic maybe, try different spells. Unless its the 10th time I die and I ragequit :P

You mean like delete character, than account, than deinstall game just to install it again and beg Devs to undo account / character deletion the next day?

Oh my, I did that like 100 times :o)))

I see...

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wakko wrote:

As I said before, I like the concept with gear being dropped. NOT disappearing, just dropped when I die. It makes me mad, because I need too get down there again and get it. And when I have my gear again, I want revenge! Kill the turd that killed me in the first place.

This is my opinion however.. :)

Having gear dropped as a penalty really could be motivating. But that depends on two factors:
1. What kind of gear it is - if it's the gear you've got on you when you died than that it probably your best gear. Not having your best gear on while you're in the area where you died can be frustrating to say the least.
The dropped gear could be the one in the player's inventory.
2. And the most important factor is whether or not the gear in question can be taken by other players. If that is the case, then the game would be outright sadistic and not fun even to some hardcore players (especially if we're talking about unique items).

The only way I could see that such a penalty would work is if upon death the player has some of their gear (e.g. the primary weapon or one of the rings) is taken away and stored by some NPC who could just charge you in order to have your gear back (the price, of course, being correlated to the item itself, the player's level, etc).
This option gives another possible penalty for players who die too much (e.g. 13 times in an hour) - doing a quest for the NPC in order to retrieve the gear in question.

That being said, however, I still think that the suggestion with the underworld/party revival would make the game much more unique than its counterparts.

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Lino wrote:

That being said, however, I still think that the suggestion with the underworld/party revival would make the game much more unique than its counterparts.

There was an FPS that came out about five years ago called Prey that had a similar mechanic. When you died you went to a spirit world. The goal was to shoot as many of these spirits that would fly around as you could before you got sucked into a vortex. The vortex would put you back in the real world at the spot where you died. The more spirits you killed in the spirit world then the more health and energy you would recover when you got back to the real world. It was a very interesting game mechanic especially for an FPS.

If you're curious, you can check out this playthrough video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z83399ZdcM4
The player dies and goes to the spirit world at around the 2 minute mark. You can see him regain health and energy as he shoots the spirits.