Death Penalties

the game is not about leveling, the game is about items. the current softcore penalty is too lenient considering that, as it doesn't stop people from inflating the market with powerful items or currency. i suggest a droprate decrease of some sort be implemented, with increasing returns per death

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yuwy wrote:

The xp penalty for death is a skill/item check on stupidity. If your character is stuck at 80 ish then either your equipment is way below level OR your skill tree is beyond repair. There are repercussions for choices. This whole mentality of brute forcing and trying the same thing over and over and dieing constantly is the definition of insanity. The game is trying to tell you to STOP and think.

If you desync a lot, do you have seething potions? because I can tell you right now, ALL HC guys at 80+ have it. Why? because there moments where desync would just crush you if you didnt have granite+seething+leech. There are many factors out of your control that could kill you, guess what HC has it as well, but we dont sit and cry in the corner and ask for nerfs, we stop we think, we assess 'is this map worth it?' because it just might be your last.

This is the thinking part that I think some of the newer generation (not all) miss. STOP AND THINK PPL. There are ways around problems and the HC ladder is proof that the mechanics are in place to survive. The question is do you want to learn and survive or just keep pounding your head against the wall thats the crux of the issue. 15% xp lose is NOTHING if you just sit down, be calm, and assess the weakness of your character and address it in some meaningful way that isn't insane.

I dont think you get the point. Default is not the league that died in HC it is the league of people who made the choice that they are not intrested in HC. If this people hit a wall in the game that cant be fixed by altering the build, getting better gear or learning game mechanics but requires changes of the general approach to the game and a 5-7 year waiting period for a more stable internet connection, their character cant progress anymore.
And for alot of people there is no difference between this and a dead char what effectively forced this people into a kind of HC league anyway.

The real question is if it would hurt anyone to scale the XP loss per lvl up independent from the XP required to the next level for higher levels ? You dont need alot of empathy to see why someone who plays a few hours sometimes could be frustrated by loosing weeks of progress with every death. Its not like this would turn bad builds into succesfull ones and hurt anyone.

I seen this numerous time in this thread.
People comparing everyone to top HC players. this is wrong.

In everything, there are the elites, the average and the poor.
There is a small percentage of elites and poor and a majority of average.

Saying that HC players that made it to 90+ is invalidating the fact that we want another system to penalize death is retarded.
It's like saying that this guy is a billionaire so why aren't you one?
Because not everything is as easy as you say.

Some of us have busy lives and can only spend so much time on a game.
Having a mechanic that sets you back in time in you progress is just breaking all the enjoyment we get from that precious personal time we spend on the game.

Saying that we should quit the game because we don't like that single aspect of the game is also retarded. This is an OPEN BETA and that means that nothing is set in stone yet.
That is why there is a feedback section on the forum.
It is there for us to discuss what we like and dislike and that is what we are doing.

For people thinking that hardcore is really hardcore, I say that you are living an illusion.
Real Hardcore is permanent death. Not character transfer!
This Hardcore is by FAR the most gentle one. Once your character dies, it goes into the default league and you can still profit from everything you have gathered with that character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_death <<< THIS is a real hardcore penalty.
This game offers a false Hardcore. Yes when you die you are not on the ladder anymore but like I said, you can still profit from that character.

And for everyone thinking that we want that penalty removed, YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG!
We want GGG to put another kind of penalty, less harsh and time consuming.

Most of us suggested XP debt, different leagues and such things but only a very small percentage want it completely removed and I cannot agree with them.

But even then, why shouldn't they have their own league?
Would it really affect the trade?
I don't think so because if someone is quitting the game because he is tired of the death penalty, he is not part of the trade. If he could switch to a league fitting his needs, it would have the same results.
He wouldn't be part of your trade.

Remove the current death penalty. Then add in a new system where if you die you can not play that character until they rez after a few hours.

This would be better then losing time and it would encourage playing alts.

Deaths shouldn't be that big of a deal on default league, and it isn't until very late game. It should cap at 15% of your level 70 exp (or something like that). That would actually make it more consistent, and would make alot more sense.

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wrathmar wrote:

Remove the current death penalty. Then add in a new system where if you die you can not play that character until they rez after a few hours.

This would be better then losing time and it would encourage playing alts.

Joke?

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Some of us have busy lives and can only spend so much time on a game.
Having a mechanic that sets you back in time in you progress is just breaking all the enjoyment we get from that precious personal time we spend on the game.

And nothing wrong with that, but even people should be encouraged to think and this game does that. What I think your looking for is something more casual. People see 15% xp loss as a punishment and time wasted. But others view it as a learning experience, obviously from what I can ascertain from the posts, you do not want to learn or think, just have some mindless fun. There are other games for that, POE has never been made with that premise, so its of course going to be a difficult time for the unprepared.

While i view it from an HC standpoint, others have pointed out that there are numerous ppl who have made it past 80+. Even more so in default leagues. What I am trying to understand is are you trying to fix a broken mechanic? because it appears everyone else is moving along and working within the confines of the game. The design of the game itself allows many to succeed. You need to start analyzing why it is your not succeeding. At least you have the privilege to learn in default where u can try different things until you succeed. In HC we learn mistakes the hard way, by dieing. Thats it. Getting your character transfered into default is a death in HC. Theres no way to bring that char back.

Why dont we start with this, why don't we take a look at your skill build/items because before you declare the game too hard, we really need to understand what were working with here because a bad build is a bad build. You cant really expect to pick some skills, hope for the best and demand to reach the end game right?

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You lose nothing but your default league alt gains a LOT. I don't care if you don't want to play default: you still could use the character if you wanted to... it's exactly the same logic you are trying to ram down our throats: "you could choose to learn the game" or whatever it is... equally: you could choose to play your character in default mode.

Sure I could, its not the main argument. I could play default or I could choose not to. There is certaintly enough motivation for me to not die. That you can at least not deny.

The 'logic' im trying to ram down your throats is called 'common sense'. Im sorry I must have missed the days when trying to converse logically became open for attack.

I'm all for balance changes when a game mechanic is provably hard beyond belief where nobody succeeds. What I'm not seeing in your arguments is a valid reason why when many have succeeded before, and will after you. Failing to survive yourself is not the kind of reasoning I would stand up to GGG and demand xp penalty removed for.

Present the facts clearly, analysis your situation and present a formal argument so that GGG can take it seriously. This whole, I want things removed or nerfed just because isn't exactly a convincing way to win GGG's train of thought.

I took a look at the skill tree and it appears to be that your going totems with summoning. The last major skill patch had nerfed both CI and 2x totems and as a result your character skill choice is not going to perform well end game for 2 reasons.

1. totems do not aim properly all the time
2. minion ai is still wonky

That said, I'm still not sure how your dieing that much, the amount of minions you should have affords you a tremendous amount of security. Compared to say marauders who have nothing to hide behind.

While I 100% agree there must be a hefty penalty for merciless, I very much dislike this 15%.
Is it possible gear and skills could make me die less? Maybe, probably even. But most of the time I find myself dying because I'm casting and a party member drags a deadly mob into me, obliterating me before i have a chance (dogs, namely (docks). I have also died a few times because I have to keep all loot showing or id never get any since there's countless players that spend more time taking loot then actually fighting.

The loot covering the screen has hidden mobs from sight. Side note, itd maybe be a great option to disable whites and blues from being displayed.

Anyways, while I don't have specifics I'm sure the devs could come up with something more proper. Instead of costing us time (and as some claim "motivating" us to become better) I believe the motivation should still be there but in a much different form.

Some type of accumulating debuff that makes dying a very unattractive pursuit. A weak example but nonetheless: Say you die. You reeappear in X home town as usual. However there is a debuff in the top corner. Now there could be more then one variation to making this the best death penalty it could be :P. There could be a debuff that reduces XP gain, and/or IR and/or IQ. Reducing XP gain would be far more motivation then feeling the thundering depression that arrives from a big chunk of 15% disappearing. Especially since this debuff would accumulate, effectively nullifying any ridiculous utilization of death (quick example: using them to return to town). A timer on this debuff would probably not work well, as you could just log off or sit in town for a while. The best idea that comes to mind is rewarding the player for correcting their mistake by surviving in the same act(and difficulty, so people cant be cheap and go downwards) until they can remove the buff.

I realize that one could make the argument on how is this any different from the 15%, well, in a way, its not. However, what it does accomplish is not making us feel like we lost time (and rage quitting int he process), instead it encourages us to survive better(which the current one does for some, but disheartens othters).

Theres definitely more then one way that could be conceived to allow removal of the debuff. The one that comes to mind is some type of calculation of killing mobs in the zone you died in order to remove the debuff. This has an added benefit of some players naturally becoming more intelligent and cautious, not wanting that debuff to accumulate.

In the end, an accumulating debuff will still cost you time, but not make you want to quit in frustration.

Some extra thoughts on the debuff: At say, 75+ it doesn't affect XP and instead heavily negates IR and IQ. I can't imagine anyone wanting that type of debuff over level 70 when gear really becomes most of our true motivation in the game. Once maps become a daily occurrence in your play I imagine leveling is much more of a secondary goal versus pimping out yourself to the very utmost potential.

Some may enjoy the masochism (sorry but i consider it that) of straight losing time for making a mistake, being unlucky or whatever else caused ones death. That we should reflect on our shortcomings and rectify them. I consider the pure loss of XP as a very inefficient lesson. All it really does is cause you to spend time killing whatever the same amount of times you killed to get that exp. Some may utilize it to fix themselves, but for me it just makes me want to exit the game. I welcome challenges, I wish games continued to feed the challenge. I however have no love for essential deletion of my efforts. I dont have anything against those who play hardcore, I wont even whine about them saying l2play. Personally I enjoy a playstyle that crosses all my games, I learn from my mistakes but I play without caution and enjoy myself much more.

Maybe the accumulating debuff would just be slight illusion, but Id much rather have such a thing over losing my time.


TL;DR = Accumulating debuff, affecting XP gain, IR and IQ, the three things that matter to us the most. Reward the player for correcting their mistakes and surviving but not losing their efforts. Keep in mind there are many alterations that could make accumulating debuff better then what i have mentioned. Such as disallowing a player to loot anything until they have redeemed themselves by defeating foes.

The only thing I think that might be a problem is that the Death Penalty hurts the development of a Default Build culture / baseline. When you start approaching level 80 you need to build at least 80% of the fail-saveness of a true hardcore build because no offensive potential you will ever acquire will repay you the time lost if you die at 75+. Default builds naturally converge into the (imo more 'boring') hardcore builds because dieing more than once in a full moon is not an option if you want to progress xp-wise.

I love exp penalty! im serious, dont nerf it.