Freezing Pulse

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h3rp3s wrote:

Freezing Pulse is balanced because:


1) It has a really high mana cost per second. It could be less at later levels 18-20

Base cost 23. Compared to 29 for Spark which has the same base casting time? I'm sure you know that the mana cost multiplier on support gems scales less for Freezing Pulse because of its very low mana cost. If you think that mana cost is high, that's called delusion.

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h3rp3s wrote:

2) People can stack cold resist 85+, making FP damage very small. I think it needs more damage mid levels.

I don't know what you're referring to here--PvP balance? This applies to everything in the game. Did you lose a lot of duels at the mid levels?
http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Cold_Penetration - Use this?
Resistance and damage mitigation applies to everything.

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h3rp3s wrote:

3) FP has a low crit chance, with no extra base crit damage. i.e. Ice Spear

Freezing Pulse has a 6% base crit chance which is above average. Here are the blue damaging spells plus Etheral Knives.
7% - Ice Spear
6% - Fireball, Freezing Pulse, Spark, Tempest Shield,
5% - Arctic Breath, Firestorm, Frost Wall, Ice Nova, Lightning Warp, Etheral Knives
4% - Arc, Cold Snap, Discharge, Shock Nova

Ice Spear does not have extra base crit damage, it has a higher chance to critically strike after it transforms.

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h3rp3s wrote:

4) FP has very very low ranged damage, and it does really nothing even with 20% Quality Gem vs a ranged enemy.

The effective damage at range increases substantially with an Icreased Projectile Speed gem. If you are trying to use it at maximum or even medium range you are playing quite poorly. It has a damage falloff because that's more balanced. It allows a smooth amount of damage to be applied at different ranges. The alternative is a cutoff where the projectile just disappears and that's harder to balance, would be more boring, and probably feel worse for players. The falloff lets you do some damage at range, or at least snare a target, if you need to.

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h3rp3s wrote:

5) FP is the only viable end game witch spell

Path of Exile Wiki "h3rp3s" edition:

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h3rp3s wrote:

Skills that do way more damage than FP:

EK (At lvl 20 FP does 290 dmg, compared to EK which is 790+ damage.)
Puncture
Lightning Arrow
Bear Traps

Etheral Knives - I haven't looked into Etheral Knives, but other people here have shown concern that it's overpowered.
Puncture - With Chance to Flee? People are chain-clearing mob packs with Puncture? You'll need to elaborate on how Puncture is the overpowered flavor of the month. How it's too efficient, scales too well, is very easy to use, is available from the very beginning of the game and is good at all levels, and is extremely simple to build for and has no difficult period in its progression.
Bear Traps - So people are clearing packs of mobs in seconds with Bear Traps? It sounds like you got beaten in PvP by them or something. Something else that 'does more damage' is Molten Shell, it explodes for a whole 2217-3326! That's 10 times as much as Freezing Pulse. So that means Freezing Pulse should have its damage increased by 10 times since we are willfully ignoring all of the factors that go into the balance of a particular skill.



I expect people like you to come to the defense of your new favorite build. (Actually there are multiple builds with different styles of play, all revolving around Freezing Pulse. This can happen because it's very powerful and incredibly efficient.) Why else would you be browsing this thread if you didn't know in the back of your mind it was too powerful and wanted to see what people were saying about it?

I had a EK character, I don't even consider it overpowered unless you built it into a very specific way which I don't think many people have done successfully and not die: make a crit build for it and not be made of glass. I had a STR based EK character and used Iron Will and a few uniques and the damage it did was insane but it is very slow to cast, very expensive that I had to use Blood Magic. Using Blood Magic gimps you very hard as you can't use many auras, yet I still would use Hatred as I also used double Bear Traps which is works with. I was also temporarily using Kaom's Heart on this character. I had two sets of EK spells, one with Chain, one without. 500+ STR (probably closer to 600, haven't played in a while). Clear speed is slower than a FP character with less defensive options because of how criting with cold damage works. Also with Kaom's Heart, casting EK+Chain+Life Leech into Lightning Thorns I get destroyed (but Lightning Thorns has it's own issues).

I'd remake my EK character for critical strikes, but I'd use Freezing Pulse for Physical reflect mobs because FP is so good I don't have to specialise in cold damage to make it any good. This makes my Arc character weep.

I really feel that a good EK build is expensive - dual wands with very high projectile speed and spell damage and cast speed so you can do without Faster Projectiles (Quality Freezing Pulse will do this, you only need one wand and a decent shield that may have high crit chance. The equipment cost is cheaper for FP). Need to decided if you use Iron Will or not (quality is "free" spell damage). The Magnate unique belt (I have but didn't use; I used Deshret's Vise - cheap option). Need to decide Eldritch Battery or not because the mana usage is horrible. There are a few pieces you could go for but a FP could just straight up use Energy Shield where a EK would have to consider using Armour for reflect.

People want to nerf EK? It's such a bad skill when you get it, you have to use FP for the first 30 levels.

You have to use Freezing Pulse for the first 30 levels, possibly more.

.

Let me reply to this...

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h3rp3s wrote:

@Cosmusik. JOIN DATE: April 21, 2013 3:30 PM

Spoiler

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Cosmusik wrote:

Base cost 23. Compared to 29 for Spark which has the same base casting time? I'm sure you know that the mana cost multiplier on support gems scales less for Freezing Pulse because of its very low mana cost. If you think that mana cost is high, that's called delusion.

1. Spark has LMP built in. If you use any Multiple projectiles with FP it becomes way more expensive than Spark which has free LMP. Freezing Pulse with GMP is 46 per cast, FP with LMP at 35.

Spark is also random as hell with damage being very sporadic that it's effective DPS in real terms is lower than FP despite it's shocking ability, which is why it's so much stronger with dual totems for more chance to shock and coverage. Mana being better with built in LMP? It's not even comparative when you are talking about efficiency of kills.

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h3rp3s wrote:

Spoiler

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Cosmusik wrote:

I don't know what you're referring to here--PvP balance? This applies to everything in the game. Did you lose a lot of duels at the mid levels?
http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Cold_Penetration - Use this?
Resistance and damage mitigation applies to everything.

2. This is funny, and shows you have never played pvp past level 75, cold pen (-35% MAX) is very ineffective because targets can stack 50%+ resist past 85% making cold pen worthless. Also in turn making FP damage 15%.

This can effectively happen with any pure element spell. The advantage that cold spells have over other spells except EK is that you could use Cold to Fire as a stand-by.

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h3rp3s wrote:

Spoiler

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Cosmusik wrote:

Etheral Knives - I haven't looked into Etheral Knives, but other people here have shown concern that it's overpowered.Puncture - With Chance to Flee? People are chain-clearing mob packs with Puncture? You'll need to elaborate on how Puncture is the overpowered flavor of the month. How it's too efficient, scales too well, is very easy to use, is available from the very beginning of the game and is good at all levels, and is extremely simple to build for and has no difficult period in its progression.
Bear Traps - So people are clearing packs of mobs in seconds with Bear Traps? It sounds like you got beaten in PvP by them or something. Something else that 'does more damage' is Molten Shell, it explodes for a whole 2217-3326! That's 10 times as much as Freezing Pulse. So that means Freezing Pulse should have its damage increased by 10 times since we are willfully ignoring all of the factors that go into the balance of a particular skill.

3. You havent even tried EK? Who would have guessed? If you don't know how Puncture and Bear traps are OP, I can't even help you. Your reasoning sounds childish. In fact this will be the last response to your rambling.

Well, I've already discussed how EK isn't OP, Puncture is weird because if you crit I believe it does more damage over time by a significant amount which makes it hella good but it's serviceable skill - meaning that few people would get a use from it outside of using it in first blow in an engagement or using it for what it's meant to be for; reflect mobs... and Bear Traps are Bear Traps. Fire Traps are better than Bear Traps if you build for it stacking shocks and curses. It's just that Bear Trap is amazing single target and is pretty much a death grip ability when you have two sets of skills.

Listing those skills I assume you like playing PvP, I think those skills you listed are pretty much the most annoying skills. Even monsters that have them included. EK is hard to mitigate damage if you don't have armour, generally people have decent elemental resistances, even for the added cold/fire damage on EK which for EK is just such a nice bonus. In some ways it's too easy to cap elemental resistances, especially over cap and increasing max resistances because Purity is too strong to not have it, unless you're Blood Magic/gimped like my EK character that never cared about resistances even at sub 60% because his health and regen was too high to care about anything other than shock stacks. My only conclusion to the rest of those skills is that I'm unsure of how you would balance them and not make them suck other than Puncture, which I'd make it crit only ability possibly with chance to crit and modify it's damage from there.

Also, keep it civil.

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h3rp3s wrote:

This is funny, and shows your inexperience with levels 75+, cold pen (-35% MAX) is very ineffective because targets can stack 35%+ resist past 85% very easily, making cold pen worthless. In turn making FP damage only 15%.

actually penetration support gem will always provide its listed number less than max resist (or sum of all negative resists). yes mobs (and players i guess, sorry i don't care about pvp but its safe to assume) have above 75% res, but in presence of no other negative res, penetration does this 75%[res cap] -35%[pen val] = 40%, thus the element deals 60% instead of 25% damage.
however that is still moot when that applies to any element via respective.

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h3rp3s wrote:

@Cosmusik. JOIN DATE: April 21, 2013 3:30 PM. TOTAL FORUM POSTS: 3 (Troll?)

What are new accounts?

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1. Spark has LMP built in which is why the mana cost is higher. If you use any Multiple projectiles with FP it becomes way more expensive than Spark which has free LMP. Freezing Pulse with GMP is 46 per cast, FP with LMP at 35.

Freezing Pulse has built in 100% chance to pierce, which you can't even achieve with a gem. It also has enormous projectiles, and you can make your coverage area something like a 160 degree cone. Talk about coverage. With every cast of Freezing Pulse you can hit every enemy in front (and to the sides) of you. Talk about mana efficiency. Spark doesn't achieve that because the projectiles disappear individually.

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2. This is funny, and shows your inexperience with levels 75+, cold pen (-35% MAX) is very ineffective because targets can stack 35%+ resist past 85% very easily, making cold pen worthless. In turn making FP damage only 15%.

Again this applies to everything. This is not even a point that can be used in an argument. It just sounds like you got countered in PvP. To remedy that I suggest having a backup elemental type. I know Freezing Pulse is strong but don't think it can be relied on in every situation.

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Cosmusik wrote:

The effective damage at range increases substantially with an Icreased Projectile Speed gem. If you are trying to use it at maximum or even medium range you are playing quite poorly. It has a damage falloff because that's more balanced. It allows a smooth amount of damage to be applied at different ranges. The alternative is a cutoff where the projectile just disappears and that's harder to balance, would be more boring, and probably feel worse for players. The falloff lets you do some damage at range, or at least snare a target, if you need to.

3. Thanks for agreeing that FP is "more balanced."

I guess this is just a case of selective reading, to the point of intentionally misinterpreting what I said. Damage falloff is a mechanic which is easier to balance than a cutoff. In a cutoff, the spell would need to go from full damage to no damage at some range (like 25% of the current maximum range). In your premise, with a 20% projectile speed gem the spell is still useless against a ranged enemy. If the spell had a cutoff it would have a much shorter maximum range and then it actually would be literally useless against an enemy at range. However, it would be at full strength against enemies at medium range. That's just not very elegant and it's harder to balance so that's why it works like it does. I don't think Freezing Pulse is balanced. I appreciate the intelligence behind designing a damage falloff mechanic for a 100% chance to pierce spell with a large projectile. It's just that the numbers on the spell are too good so they nullify the downside of having a short effective range on the spell, which is supposed to be the big balancing factor.


I won't grace your 4th response with a proper one either. I am actually also done responding to your posts. I know you've lost a lot in PvP to counter-builds that have Bear Traps and Puncture to kite you, and Cold Resist to mitigate your single-scope build. But PvP can't be the focus of balance changes at this point and I've read that from GGG staff. This is more or less a forum concerned with PvE balance. I just appreciate that so many people will speak up about an ability when it is overpowered instead of picking it up and using it for themselves while they can.

It's hard to discuss the power of the skill when we don't even know the falloff equation, other than the fact that the falloff is brutal, scaling approximately linearly from 100% in the middle of your character to less than 10% at the tip, with 50% at around the midpoint of the projectile. I'd estimate that people's 'real' DPS with FP (not taking resists into account) is easily half the tooltip DPS over the course of a map.

So for example apply this to 'coverage': Yeah the coverage is good, but things that aren't closeby are getting covered with far less DPS (oh, as for hitting things to the side, if that's happening then you arent hitting with every projectile, aka your DPS per target is crap).

I'd like to throw my hat onto the side of: please don't nerf FP, or increase its mana cost.

I'm generally concerned about this race to the bottom with skills/spells. FP happens to be broadly end game viable with good gear, but certainly not OP in my view. Let's not further narrow the spectrum of end game viable builds.

Petrov.

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pwnageoftheyear wrote:

i want to see this skill gem on the next balance list for 10.9..

And why would that be? There are plenty more skills which need balance, cause you just can`t use them properly at endgame.
FP is fine, Arc, FB, AB, heck most other spells need improvement...the few actualy usable require (dual)totems- or summonerbuilds.