Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

I feel Arch summed up my feelings on the game quite nicely. Additional thoughts-

I personally feel the game has gotten much better than the beta days. Now, what you and I consider "better" is something that is up for grabs. I had quit for some time right about when Ambush started, and returned for Forsaken Masters. I think FM was a fantastic expansion that greatly aided the solo player's needs.

They have -the- best customer support I've seen in any company. The response time to requests is unreal, especially when you've primarily played Blizzard games and expect at least a few days before you get an automated response saying they've just begun looking into your issue.



That being said, part of me agrees with Scrotie in letting the game die, however. While I've never had any issues running the game, it cannot be denied that the game is poorly coded/very outdated. Desync is something that's been a part of the game since day one. Everyone knows it, everyone adapts to it, whether via oos macro or limiting movement abilities, or just getting used to holding shift every single time they right click or use abilities (pretty much my pinkie finger is glued to the shift key).

Map stability has gotten significantly worse in the latest patch. It's a little galling when you have someone on your friend's list speaking in guild chat and whispering you, yet because of map issues you reply and you get a "___ is not online message." Speaking of whispering, why is whispering people when they're zoning STILL is an issue?


A number of guildmates talk about this on mumble a fair bit, and this is what several of us agree on - finish Act 4, and work on PoE 2. Start from scratch. Continue to patch and release updates for A4, skill gems, uniques, etc, but work on a new game with a new codebase.

Scrotie came back! ....just to announce he quit. Well, we kinda figured that out already since you've been gone for a while.

I find it amusing to see the hopes and dreams people heap on to POE 2. As if piling hopes and dreams onto POE 1 didn't work out, so we heap them onto POE 2 instead.... like that fixes everything. Well you can hope for a sequel. I'm not

Multiplayer games (PC especially) have already made the transition from product to service. Not all of them, granted. But POE is one of the games that is more service than product. The reason I bring this up is because services don't have sequels. There's no Facebook 2, there's no World of Warcraft 2, and there won't be a POE 2. If the service sticks around long enough then the code base may be drastically different from where it started (v2.0 if you will), but it's still going to be POE 1, and there's going to be too much in POE to throw it away.

Any idea they have for POE 2 can be implemented into POE 1. They're working with their own engine so if they do implement something new for POE 2, they've already done the work to implement it into POE 1 as well! The difference is POE 1 already has a whole story mode, heavily tested balance, a wide variety of skills, items, and locations, tons of art and audio assets, loyalists who will stick with their mtx/stash tabs, and a proven track record. POE 2 has none of that. Why scrap everything just to make a few small changes? It makes no sense. Changing POE 1 is easier and cheaper.

Even if you disagree, we have no indication that the funding GGG receives is going toward a sequel. Instead the indications are that funding is going to ongoing support of POE 1. What is the thought process? that they have a magic backup plan for when they stop making money on POE 1, to push out a POE 2 that will be the game you wished for?

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Scrotie came back! ....just to announce he quit. Well, we kinda figured that out already since you've been gone for a while.

I find it amusing to see the hopes and dreams people heap on to POE 2. As if piling hopes and dreams onto POE 1 didn't work out, so we heap them onto POE 2 instead.... like that fixes everything. Well you can hope for a sequel. I'm not

Multiplayer games (PC especially) have already made the transition from product to service. Not all of them, granted. But POE is one of the games that is more service than product. The reason I bring this up is because services don't have sequels. There's no Facebook 2, there's no World of Warcraft 2, and there won't be a POE 2. If the service sticks around long enough then the code base may be drastically different from where it started (v2.0 if you will), but it's still going to be POE 1, and there's going to be too much in POE to throw it away.

Any idea they have for POE 2 can be implemented into POE 1. They're working with their own engine so if they do implement something new for POE 2, they've already done the work to implement it into POE 1 as well! The difference is POE 1 already has a whole story mode, heavily tested balance, a wide variety of skills, items, and locations, tons of art and audio assets, loyalists who will stick with their mtx/stash tabs, and a proven track record. POE 2 has none of that. Why scrap everything just to make a few small changes? It makes no sense. Changing POE 1 is easier and cheaper.

Even if you disagree, we have no indication that the funding GGG receives is going toward a sequel. Instead the indications are that funding is going to ongoing support of POE 1. What is the thought process? that they have a magic backup plan for when they stop making money on POE 1, to push out a POE 2 that will be the game you wished for?

Just to add something to your comment, this is an example of a game corrected after being shit, that it's positively worse than GGG situation right now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV:_A_Realm_Reborn

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tackle70 wrote:

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as Charan's post on AoE says

Stopped reading there. Charan's desires for this game are at this point wildly out of touch with what PoE currently is,

PoE is what it is; you either like it or you don't,

You have the ability to innovate and do whatever you want.

You've made a lot of assumptions about PoE, GGG, and players here without any substantiation. You could just as well have said, "Giant walruses climb the Eiffel Tower every day to protest Climate Change."

Let's try an experiment. Pull up the skill "tree". What do you see? Lots of complex choices. One of the things that appeal to many PoE players (as evidenced by all the build types and theorizing)is the variety of ways the game can be played.

What Charan was lamenting in the AoE thread, was that many of these varieties have become far less viable compared to AoE. The game didn't use to be that way, and doesn't have to be that way.

Another experiment: Look at the skill gems. Notice Multistrike? GGG specifically put that in the game for melee players because melee was rapidly losing viability. GGG has nerfed/buffed/rebuffed/renerfed things to try an keep more options open for players.

Charan's comments were on a specific aspect of those choices.

As to whether he is in tune with the game, maybe you've noticed a self casting Arc player in a map. Maybe even two of them, or maybe dozens and dozens and dozens of them.

Charan playtested the hell out of self casting arc and gave GGG a lot of feedback. GGG took this and other feedback and made some improvements. So, if you're playing an self-cast Arc player, you have no idea at all what goes on behind the scenes.

Other players have given GGG feedback as well. One of the great things about GGG is the way they do listen and consider what the players are saying. Many of the long time supporters hope to see GGG continue this amazing philosophy.

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tackle70 wrote:

You are thinking of things in a very upside down way. You tried the product, and buying a supporter pack is equivalent to nothing more than saying "thanks" for what you have ALREADY experienced, not making a purchase for what you HOPE to experience in the future.

TL;DR --> If you view GGG's business model as a kickstarter, the problem is with your understanding of the game and its support, not with GGG or their design.

For many supporters this may be true. For some players, the support for GGG is intended as funding for future development. If you have read enough of Charan's posts, you would know very clearly, that his intentions were to do what he could to help what he saw as a fundamentally good fledgling gaming company.

If my understanding of his posts and my memory are accurate, Charan has said that he isn't concerned so much about where PoE is headed as where GGG is headed. PoE will one day end, but GGG can continue to do wonderful things.

Interpreting other people's intentions is not something most people should do lightly. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. It is a skill that requires some key components. One of the most critical is the ability for someone to recognize and acknowledge that they are wrong and learn and grow from the experience.

Without that, all the other skills just mean going faster down a dead end street.

Firstly, I'm glad to know you're still alive Scrotie (I'm actually serious about that).

The conversation in this thread has got me thinking about expectations and the impact they have on us. I once heard that the secret to never being angry or upset is to have no expectations.
Now I see this as an observational statement rather than a way to try and live ones life. There are things we should get angry about. Things like social injustice, child abuse, domestic violence etc. We are right to expect these sort of things should not happen to people and therefore right to be angry when they (sadly all too often) do. There are also things people get angry about that perhaps they shouldn't, like their spouse not doing the laundry or something. When something makes you angry, you can step back and ask why? Is this worth being angry over? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, that is up to the individual. You ultimately live with yourself and are the first to wear your anger.

So how does that relate to this thread?

Well here we have read from people who are disappointed with what PoE has become and those who are not. What I believe fuels the disappointment is unmet expectations.
You see what drew me to this game and why I continue to play and support is that it is pretty much the ARPG I was waiting for, a game with massive build potential and diversity. To me, this element has only continued to improve. My expectations of PoE are centred around this aspect and if it began to change and turn into something similar to D3, then I would be hitting the forums frequently voicing my disarray. I would be angry.

Those who have become disenchanted with PoE's current state and direction were drawn to other elements that were there in CB that are no longer. They signed on expecting that particular flavour to continue, but it has not. Whether or not the expectation was fuelled by old vision statements or something self imposed is irrelevant. The fact is to them, this is not the game they thought it would be.

It's not our place to say whether or not someone has a right to be angry or upset over these things, that's up to the individual. Everyone has to live with their own anger. What I would encourage people to do is to assess the things that anger and upset them and ask yourself "Is this something I want to be angry or upset about?" Sometimes we answer yes, sometimes no. That's up to you.

We have started talking about PoE 2. I would caution everyone to be aware of their expectations. They can be hard to live up to.

I think this thread is a little too negative. Sure, not all changes were for the better and some decisions are questionable, but overall the game has improved over time.
Of course starting over with a new game has some benefits, like a better engine and the possibility to approach some stuff differently. However, I don't feel like it is time to abandon the ship yet.

Also, IMO, comparing GGG's supporter packs to a kickstarter campaign is wrong. It's not like they ever promised that we get feature X once they have accumulated a certain amount of money.

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TikoXi wrote:

And if this is how you want to be remembered, "The Ass who Called for the Death of the Company", then frankly the sooner we see the back of you, the sooner we can forget you.

I agree with much of what you said. I don't think Scrotie was calling for the death of GGG at all. He was calling for a leap from PoE, so GGG can get started on PoE2 or their next game. I completely disagree that the method Scrotie suggested would be helpful in obtaining that result, and I agree with you that it would lead to serious trouble for GGG.

I don't think that was Scrotie's intentions though. If it was, his tile would have been

Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this company needs to die.

That isn't the title and such a sentiment doesn't fit his statements here nor is it consistent with his manner of posting in the past. Though we have disagreed about different aspects of the game, one of the things I really like about Scrotie is that he means what he says and says what he means. There's not a lot of beating about the bush, but there is usually very deliberate and thoroughly considered thinking behind what he says.

I haven't finished wading through the thread yet, but if it hasn't already been suggested, GGG could make some very big fixes in the meantime by starting up custom leagues. Players that miss cut throat do or die (and all the anguish that comes with it) gaming, would be able to get a league steered in that direction. Players that want a self found league, or more casual league would be able to get it. The players might have to band up and figure out what most really want in order to make it viable, but it would eliminate a lot of GGG's fundamental problems caused by so many different play styles.

I am optimistic that when ACT IV is released, GGG can take a big step back and look at the long term picture, make some decisions and then let the players know where the game (or next game) is headed. A very challenging playing style option packed Action RPG with a little more RP in it, is where I hope they are going.

More staff. If the funding is there, I believe they need to get more employees. IMO, GGG is trying to accomplish six link challenges with 3 links.

If location is a problem, maybe they just need to send out the Brute Squad and bring some prospects back.

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TheWretch wrote:

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raics wrote:

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MoonYu wrote:

So they made the masters to help us craft better. Nice concept, but I gave up on my masters at level 6. I solo only and the timed missions suck. So I don't do them any more.

Ah, yes, nice point. It's a bit strange that a game feature that is supposed to help solo self found players gets balanced for parties and price of the sole attractive master mod gets balanced for traders.

but GGG are making the game they want to make.

.niosausrep eltbus os ton dna letbus htiw semit ta ndim reiht egnahc ot evah tsuj eW

@Rufus: I would suggest to anyone actually angry to leave. You don't have to be angry to be disappointed, and you don't have to be angry to imagine a world where things went differently.

It's easy to paint the disillusioned as simply angry, but the reality is far from it. It's much closer to paying an artist up front to make a portrait. The artist claims to create lifelike portraits (and even shows you an example of his work), but when he's done, he gives a caricature instead. You can ask for the money back, but he spent it all on making the caricature.

Some people love the caricature, and I'm sure that audience is happier than ever, but it's not what the artist claimed to make.

Others can, in time, learn to love the caricature they were given. Or if you prefer the negative view, they can't stand the sunken cost and teach themselves to love it out of regret.

Most people would realize that it was a sunken cost, and the only real reaction is to be disappointed and to cut your losses. If you're really crazy, maybe you even try to help him understand why you want a lifelike portrait so badly and why the caricature isn't a true portrait, but there's no undoing the past. You certainly don't keep paying him for portraits and while he's still making caricatures, at any rate.

The truly unfortunate thing is that the artist could rebrand himself as a caricature creator and start making a lot more money that way. The only problem is that, given his history, anyone wanting to pay him for caricatures ought to be extremely wary, since he may switch to start making still-life on a dime, just as he switched to making caricatures in the past without warning or apology.

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Rufus82 wrote:

You see what drew me to this game and why I continue to play and support is that it is pretty much the ARPG I was waiting for, a game with massive build potential and diversity. To me, this element has only continued to improve. My expectations of PoE are centred around this aspect and if it began to change and turn into something similar to D3, then I would be hitting the forums frequently voicing my disarray. I would be angry.

It's funny you mention the part I bolded. That is also my huge draw to ARPGs -- a place where you can be relatively creative and yet the art you create can still be judged objectively. It's similar to architecture or coding or any other creative works with hard constraints.

Where you see improvement, I do not. It's minor improvement at best and big backwards steps at worst, and only after years of development work. Their track record of new content obviating old content is not improvement at all if you care about the game as design space, and when people talk about trends like "the game is almost entirely about AoE/crit/ranged" now, they're saying that GGG is restricting the design space over time, not making it larger.

A long time ago I wrote a massive post on this concept of "harmful content" which reduces the design space when it should instead increase it. That was when I first noticed GGG heading down this path and I wanted so badly to see them turn it around. They didn't, and now here we are.