Remove xp penalty's from death

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goetzjam wrote:

I've said this before why do you argue for changing so many things about this game we so enjoy? Why not play something else

You said that to me to. You see, theres a difference between argue for changing so many things and and argue a lot abuot few things. Feedback like *Everything is super cool* wont make game better

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CanHasPants wrote:

If you feel you have adequately rebutted the "status quo", could you do me a favor and briefly restate them?

-How are deaths unavoidable?
-How can you explain level 100 in HC?
-Should all builds be capable of reaching 100?
-If not, is it death penalty that prevents them?
-What other goals might a player have that death penalty might interfere with (by design)?
-Does death penalty successfully realize it's purpose?

Answers to your questions you can find in this thread that have been said not once. It must have been given to each of you personally? Do care to read previous pages

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Xavderion wrote:

Remove the incentive to build a well balanced character because of the miniscule amounts of 'unavoidable' deaths someone will have? Sounds like a great idea :3 You guys should become game designers.

That's the problem here. Many people that want the XP penalty to be gone speak like they die several times a day because of unavoidable/"not on player's end" factors. If it was the case, there would be no hardcore league in this game at all. And there are hardcore leagues in this game, with many people being level 100 in those too.

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Antnee wrote:

You've missed the point of my "binary check" statement. It's directly tied in to my comment about other games. As in:

Sorry, I can't raid with you. I'm not at cap yet.

1, 0. Cap, not cap. This game (currently) isn't like that. It's good for the game because its an effective way of keeping people playing; a long road is compelling, and gives you a greater sense of progression over longer periods of time. If you're not progressing (read: dying), you need to re-evaluate your build or your strategy.

Removing the penalty: Eh, just zerg it.

Also, getting to 100 needs to be more than a simple commitment of time. You have to play flawlessly over long periods of time. THAT is what makes it special. In an era where games hand out achievements simply for logging on, I welcome a challenge that will feel like an actual accomplishment if I ever choose to do it.

There are very few aspects of POE that feel hardcore anymore. The tiny handful of people at cap is one of them.

Edit: and please, for the love of fuck, "bad design" is not a synonym for "something I dislike". Stop that.

But the biggest problem is that getting to 100 is rediculously easy. And that's the problem. You even mentioned you can just keep playing low maps for xp. Yes you can. It will take you forever but yes you can. So really. The xp penaty is punishing those who want to play the game as developed, and catering to those who don't do any challenging content But mindlessly run around easy maps.

Yes, the xp penalty should be punishing, but who is it punishing? I'll give you a hint, NOT those who take everything slow. Pack by pack. Taking an hour to clear a map. And alt+f4 when you drop below 75% health.

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Moosifer wrote:

A. Desync is real, literally no one is saying otherwise.

B. If this is true explain how HC can exist? Don't just brush this argument off like everyone else has for 30 pages now. If deaths are literally unavoidable then it is literally impossible to play HC and to get to 100, both things proven incorrect. So please enlighten me to how this is false.

The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

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levy42088 wrote:

But the biggest problem is that getting to 100 is rediculously easy...

The number of people who have attained 100 would seem to provide evidence to the contrary.

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levy42088 wrote:

...You even mentioned you can just keep playing low maps for xp.

Actually I didn't, I don't know who said that, but it wasn't me. Don't blame you for making that mistake.

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levy42088 wrote:

But the biggest problem is that getting to 100 is rediculously easy. And that's the problem. You even mentioned you can just keep playing low maps for xp. Yes you can. It will take you forever but yes you can. So really. The xp penaty is punishing those who want to play the game as developed, and catering to those who don't do any challenging content But mindlessly run around easy maps.

Yes, the xp penalty should be punishing, but who is it punishing? I'll give you a hint, NOT those who take everything slow. Pack by pack. Taking an hour to clear a map. And alt+f4 when you drop below 75% health.

O ok getting to level 100 is easy now? I thought it was hard, I thought the people arguing about reducing the necessary XP gained to make it easier. See you aren't even fighting for the same thing that some of the other people want the penalty reduced or removed.

You only play the low level maps from 99>100, not from 90-99. I think it would be impossible to get to level 99 in a temporary league playing JUST lower level easy maps. However, saying the death penalty doesn't affect these players is incorrect, they are running lower level maps for one reason or another, if it is the death penalty and loss of XP, that is punishment in itself.

If players take an hour per map, then they are suffering. Their item progression, map pool, currency and fun will be significantly limited because of such. So to say it isn't punishing those players is incorrect.

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The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

Please level to 100 in hardcore before you make such a statement. You are not even arguing on the same side of those that support the removal\reduction of the penalty at this point you are arguing against the very foundation to which their position is based.

I can assure you most HC players don't skip all rare mobs, boxes or alt f4 at any sign of trouble, this might be more common then in the past.

What is this bullshit about level cap? Why are you so fucking obsessed with it? This isn't WoW or some other bullshit where level cap is suppose to be both easily reachable and expected from most players.

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levy42088 wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

A. Desync is real, literally no one is saying otherwise.

B. If this is true explain how HC can exist? Don't just brush this argument off like everyone else has for 30 pages now. If deaths are literally unavoidable then it is literally impossible to play HC and to get to 100, both things proven incorrect. So please enlighten me to how this is false.

The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

You really think that ppl play hc in way you described?That HC ppl skip all rare mobs,hit alt f4 when they get hit once,not opening boxes and that they need an hour to clear map?Omg,there is nothing worse than when standard players tellin us what is HC and how it is played.Please stop writing nonsenses,Mr.87 in the world.

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levy42088 wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

A. Desync is real, literally no one is saying otherwise.

B. If this is true explain how HC can exist? Don't just brush this argument off like everyone else has for 30 pages now. If deaths are literally unavoidable then it is literally impossible to play HC and to get to 100, both things proven incorrect. So please enlighten me to how this is false.

The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

There are enough streamers (so you can find VOD's) that reached 100 or at least 95+ with the total opposite of the gameplay you're describing there that I don't even know if you're being serious. "Hit alt f4 if I get hit once", "skipp all rare mobs",... Seriously ? I don't think I even saw someone doing that.

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

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levy42088 wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

A. Desync is real, literally no one is saying otherwise.

B. If this is true explain how HC can exist? Don't just brush this argument off like everyone else has for 30 pages now. If deaths are literally unavoidable then it is literally impossible to play HC and to get to 100, both things proven incorrect. So please enlighten me to how this is false.

The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

There are enough streamers (so you can find VOD's) that reached 100 or at least 95+ with the total opposite of the gameplay you're describing there that I don't even know if you're being serious. "Hit alt f4 if I get hit once", "skipp all rare mobs",... Seriously ? I don't think I even saw someone doing that.

Well I have seen all of the above. PLUS people using potion macros that activate at certain hp %. It dissappoints me because this is a freakin game!

Reminds me of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. When I was younger, I made a new save file, and the objective I had, was to make the Death Counter Read 0, and complete the game. Yes, in the end, the Counter said 0 Deaths. But what it doesnt tell you is how many times I turned the game off in a fight, or while I was under water before drowning.

So that is my view on Hardcore. It's called hardcore, but there is a lot those Player Levels are not telling us. Now, Lets get back on track.

This is all the same argument. The global 10% xp penalty needs to be lessened.

If we take all the End Game Mappers / Levelers, you would see that all the 78 rots are now strictly BLUE MAPS + PACK SIZE + DOMINATION MOD. Yes, it is the same thing over and over again, but there is little to no risk. I had to do this, and actually I came up with the Idea to use Domination + Packsize with my friends, then it caught on everywhere.

While players are not at 0%, they are stuck playing easy content, because they want xp, and even the slightest mods, will risk them 10%, so they don't play them. Does GGG want people having fun with end game maps? Or feel its a chore and lock yourself into 78 Pack Size Rots for days and weeks until you level up.

My view has always been that the xp penalty is so harsh, that it causes players to chose, I mean it FORCES players to choose Less Challanging, Less Fun Maps just because of fear of losing 10% (or hours and hours of your life and in game currency)

Once I hit 100, I loved mapping! Making hard maps, Double beyond, ect. I would have loved to do these maps while leveling, but I couldn't, because the fear of 10% xp was always over your head. So the logical solution for me was to "Tough it out from 95-100" then Enjoy mapping. Because some people say "well just dont care about dying when you reach a certain point" but that is kind of impossible because you are always getting xp, so you will always lose xp when you die. Even if you weren't worrying about leveling.

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The_Great_Alex wrote:

Answers to your questions you can find in this thread that have been said not once. It must have been given to each of you personally? Do care to read previous pages

The reason we are asking for a summary is because we are suddenly being told we haven't answered any of them properly. I think it's really an argument of subjectivity in which we'll never agree rather than having not been provided proper answers, which is why we are calling for them these arguments to be brought out from the thread.

Rex isn't talking as if this entire thread is untouchable, he's talking as if there are strong points we just haven't had an answer to. If these exist please list them. It makes it sound like there's many and I'll be happy to see the 3 strongest.

So please, 3 strongest arguments for why the death penalty should be removed/adjusted that haven't been addressed at all or properly.

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levy42088 wrote:

The reason there at level 100's in Hardcore is because what I said in my previous post. It doesn't take skill to not die, it just takes way too much precautions to allow the game to be fun.

Yes, if I wanted to, I could hit Alt-F4 if I get hit once. I can skip all rare mobs, Not open any boxes. But I doubt thats what GGG intended, especially from the hard core group who want to hit the level cap.

Honestly, do you read what you write? You get that alt-F4ing, skipping certain rares (who the fuck really skips all), skipping certain boxes (again, skipping all? Wtf?) using your flasks properly, how you approach mobs, how you run maps, what bosses you skip and how you approach them, how your gear is set up, tree adjustments because of your gear, that this is all skill related? Alt-F4ing, skipping ALL rares and ALL boxes, makes a long trip even longer. This is a fine approach for parent HC league, where no one plays, but for a temp league, if you plan to get to 100, you can't take the path that gets you there a year from now.

Watch any HC player's stream and tell me what they are doing differently than you because they are in HC. I'm not talking the rare things, I'm talking general gameplay. I think the majority of the things you'll find, that if you did them as well, your general skill as a player would go up.

Getting to high lvls without dying is one of the few real skill changes in this game, a game not known for being skill based either.